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The "facilities"; How does Bren use them?
Topic Started: Feb 7 2016, 03:29 PM (1,095 Views)
Eupathic Impulse
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Cherryh is one of the few SF writers even to refer to bathrooms, which is a characteristic I highly appreciate. I mean, it's fine that we know nothing about Star Trek toilets, because presumably they use transporter rays or internally installed phaser beams or fields to eliminate waste (possibly making underwear completely redundant). But for SF without that tech level, Cherryh is refreshingly realistic.

However, one thing I don't get is how Bren uses atevi toilets. Is he large enough not to fall into the bowl? Does he perch delicately on the edge? Or must his staff carry around a special "overseat"/seat cover? But then wouldn't it make the toilet too high? I mean I assume it's already pretty high.
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joekc6nlx
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kendo bain sidhe
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I got the impression that they stand over the "accommodation", perhaps squat slightly, but I hadn't considered there being a seat. Can you imagine an atevi "accommodation" room having books, magazines, etc., scattered all over the floor? Oh, wait, that's MY "accommodation" room. :innocent

Seriously, I was thinking in terms of efficiency, in that someone who sits will generally be more likely to take a longer time than someone who's standing or squatting. Kind of an in there and out of there so they can go on with what they were doing or were on their way to doing.

As for Star Trek, I wonder if they recycle the waste into the matter/antimatter engines and recover that energy. Of course, I wonder how they "replicate" a chicken sandwich, or Tea, Earl Grey, Hot, with the cup and saucer as well. Matter from energy, energy from matter, I understand, but just HOW????
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Aja Jin
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how do think they grew potatos on the Enterprise?

yep :atwink
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weeble
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He's the equivalent in size to a 10 yr old, give or take, and within the extremes of the natural range in adult size (he's the same height as 'Sidi-ji) so I expect the accommodation isn't too difficult to manage! :)

And of COURSE they recycle on the Enterprise! ... I've always found those sci-fi stories where they run out of water on a ship where everything ELSE is fully functional to be particularly poorly thought out. Its within the current level of technology to live in a bubble, its just not terribly comfortable long term, and trace elements become an issue as I understand it.
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Neco the Nightwraith
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Seems to me they have modern toilets (likely scaled up- that makes sense. Bigger bowls for bigger bums!)

It was the hole in the floor toilets at Malguri that threw him for a loop. :P
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Neco the Nightwraith,Feb 8 2016
12:51 PM
Seems to me they have modern toilets (likely scaled up- that makes sense. Bigger bowls for bigger bums!)

It was the hole in the floor toilets at Malguri that threw him for a loop. :P

Or a hole, as the case may be.
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joekc6nlx
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So, which would be "kabiu", the modern flush toilet or the hole in the floor?

I'd venture to say that in the Bujavid, where kabiu masters might be thick as fleas, they might not have "modern accommodations".

Of course, they have television, computers, printing presses, and the like, so maybe the Bujavid isn't as kabiu as the "masters" would like.
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Neco the Nightwraith
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Bren was very specific in his outrage at having to use a hole in the floor when he went to Malguri, so I'm going to go with modern facilities in the Bu-javid.

I was going to say there could be a difference in the type of modern facility (the western throne vs the more eastern "squatty potty"), but it seems to me like he was genuinely appalled at the thought of squatting to do what had to be done? Which is why I always thought it was the western throne type of fixture.
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magicdomino

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Saduri, the half-ruined fortress near Mogari-nai, also had a hole in the floor -- with daylight showing at the bottom. Although one wonders if, like the medieval garderobe, it once had a wooden seat.

Then there is the corresponding question of how the atevi used toilets on Phoenix. For them, it must have been like sitting on a child's training potty.
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BlueCatShip
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Late to the rather curious topic.

Go with Weeble's answer. Bren is about the size of an older atevi child, pre-teen, and close in size to Lady Ilisidi, who is quite small and short, as atevi go. Bren is also close in size these days to the young gentleman Cajeiri, who will surely soon be bigger than nand' Bren.

By that age, human kids no longer have to, ah, perch precariously, as it were, on the facilities, and some adult humans are that size. So it's still a bit large for their size, but not so outsized.

However, don't we also get that most atevi chairs, such as for state meetings, are a bit outsized for Bren? So his feet don't quite reach the floor?

If atevi toilets are something like ours (the "Western throne" sort) then they'd be similar in size / configuration to a regular atevi chair or stool.

We also get that Bren has to have his clothes and shoes specially tailored, because his size and proportions are not quite like atevi, either adults or children.

The earlier books talk about the psychological effects too, how atevi at first encounters, even after 200 years, they find it difficult to take humans, like Bren, seriously. In some way, humans look either dwarfed or child-like to them. Humans find atevi and atevi proportions like being around giants, or like a child around adults, which isn't quite the same mindset, remembering back to childhood.

Hmm, you know, there could be competitive / alpha-male and alpha-female sorts of things going on too, between Bren and any atevi he encounters. In any physical capacity, as well as any mental capacity, he may have to convince them that he's someone to be taken seriously, as an adult, not a kid and not a toy figure. (Or an elf, or whatever sorts of mythical figures atevi have. Hey, I don't recall meniton of that!)

So, there are dynamics between / among human males. Competitiveness, cooperation, many things. Guys give each other some room in the locker room or bathroom, but there's also sometimes an element of proving oneself or how one compares to others.

That could be a difficult thing, with Bren being "smaller" than most atevi, except kids. ... Hmm, wouldn't be too great to get picked on by some atevi kids, now would it? And they're probably strong enough to outdo him. So he'd have to be careful how he handles himself, not to get into situations where there's a seriously competitive or bullying dynamic going on.

On the ohter hand, most atevi (with any sense) are going to recognize that nand' Bren, as a human, is *not* atevi, and is an alien being, a human, with different traits, and therefore off-limits to certain things. -- For example, again psychologically, we humans generally regard members of (most) other species as completely outside that social dynamic, and therefore no source of the competition, comparison, or other such human interpersonal dynamics. It would usually be only with close association (word connotations intended) that most atevi might tend to start thinking of Bren as more atevi, more someone to deal with on atevi terms, like another atevi. Yet even so, they'd still be very aware he's not atevi, and vice versa, he's aware they're non-human, as much as he "likes" atevi. (And he's aware that humans have it built-in to "like" and "love," but atevi have something else that is not easily translatable as a word, a concept or an equivalent or approximate emotional context. Which is a huge difference. That said, my cats have a diffeent world-view and concept of liking and loving than I do as a human. They're still Earth mammals though, and so what they have is broadly similar, enough that we share some thihgs as fellow mammals. They like and love in their own way. The understand emotionally and interact with the world in their own way.

But atevi have that something else, man'chi and association and other things.

BTW, this makes me aware of how different and frustrating, but usually mundane, it has to be to be a little person (dwarf, midget) or simply on the small / short range of human size / height, in a world that is generally built for larger, taller humans, mostly for adults. If you're shorter or smaller, or if you're a little person, you still have to interact with other people and the "average adult" sized fixtures of everyday human life. -- I know for myself, with my eyesight, that dealing with the "average, normal" sighted world is mostly mundane and I usually hardly think about it except when something's difficult or it's made into a "thing." -- So littler people are used to it, it's usually mundane for them, but there are things all around that they have to deal with and adapt to, that are on an "average adult human" scale, and therefore a pain in the rear to have to work around all the time. -- Hmm, I've only ever been around about three people who were considerably different in size from most others, and that was only for short periods. So I don't really have a direct feel for what that's like for them, every day. I do know the constant little reminders I get from everday life, though, so I imagine it's something like that.

It must be something like that for Bren.

*coughs* I was carefully avoiding the issue of Bren having to deal with any curiosity (his or from atevi) about his or their bodies. But I suppose it could be an annoyance he occasionally has to deal with. Or a curiosity factor, his and theirs, to deal with. People *are* very curious about any differences, perceived or imagined or real. That can be just curiosity, scientific or learning interest. So I suppose he has that to deal with once in a while too.
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Eupathic Impulse
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I actually hadn't thought of it the other way around. How *did* the atevi make do with the facilties on Phoenix? Was there any stress on the plumbing? Regular need for the toilet plunger?
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joekc6nlx
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kendo bain sidhe
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I'll bet that when Shaishan came up to the station, the word went back down with its return to earth that they needed ATEVI sized toilets....I'm sure that the atevi could have adapted the plumbing system on Phoenix to accept atevi sized "thrones".
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It would be quite an engineering challenge though, because presumably you'd need larger pipes for some length until they reached one of the ship's sewer mains, if they have such things. And one would imagine that equipment like piping on the ship is made to fit very tight tolerances, because space and mass are at a premium. A possible alternative solution would be to impose a very high fiber diet on the atevi passengers or maybe add some kind of laxative alkaloid to the tea. :t
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Aja Jin
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this thread reminds me of a classic -- http://shejidanacherryhpit.yuku.com/topic/...es#.Vr9g5vA8KrU

:fluffy:
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Eupathic Impulse
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Personally I think not falling in the toilet and/or not letting them clog and overflow is a little more serious a question than "boobies".
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