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Is the Compact In The Alliance/Union Universe?
Topic Started: Feb 2 2015, 10:07 AM (2,311 Views)
starexplorer
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This thread is split from the thread Hani Numbers


But on that other vital matter....again, not looking back at the text currently, I was pretty sure the matter of whether Chanur and the Alliance-Union books took place in the same universe was left as an unresolved question. iirc, neither is explicitly mentioned in the other. There is one reference in the U/A books (in Cyteen, I think) of intelligent alien life having been found in another direction from Earth, not the direction of expansion from Earth toward Pell, Cyteen and the rest of U/A. And I forget exactly what is said in Chanur -- something of the interest in searching in another direction -- but there is no use of the words "Company", "Union", "Alliance", etc,, so that the inference might still be made that these are the same universe, or to put it differently they might take place in the same book-universes, but there is no definitive resolution of the matter, so doubt still remains on the question. Have I got that right?
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BlueCatShip
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I always took that the Chanur / Compact Space stories were set in the same Alliance-Union story-universe, and that the references in other books about intelligent life found out beyond Earth, in the opposite direction from Pell and Cyteen, was a reference to that.

I think there are references in the Chanur books too, more specific than that, about Tully's origins, but I'll need to check for that as I go along. I think it's said that Tully's ship, and Earth generally, were looking for routes in which to expand away from Alliance and Union, and that was reopening stations that had gone dark, uninhabited, when (1) the jump drive was invented, and (2) Union and then Alliance expanded during and after the Company Wars.

I think Herself has counted them Alliance-Union universe.

The Kindle edition's book header is given as, "The Pride of Chanur (Alliance-Union Universe)" but whether that's official from Herself or through the publisher, I don't know.

IIRC, the stars of Compact space were said to be the Pleiades, possibly in the Company Wars gaming system.

I'll be looking for references in the text, now that I'm on about it, and I'd like to clear up what Tully's tech post was, scan tech, I think, but something so that he'd be on the bridge. We don't get to that until later, when Tully's on the Pride's bridge or after.

I don't think it was ever specified, though, if Tully was from a civilian or a naval / military ship.

On writing systems, there's a reference in there, either at some point where Pyanfar sees Tully's writing, or more likely after contact with a human ship and the Treaty, in which Pyanfar sees human writing (type) and thinks it's "rows of humped type" and regular, orderly. That, however, doesn't give a clue as to what hani writing looks like, only that it's different.

BTW, I sat down to do a little with an idea for mahen writing, and need to do more. I have an idea to use the Devanagari as a reference point, but only that, in order to come up with something sufficiently not human. It's complicated, in that Devanagari has both independent and diacritic vowels as well as ligatures for some letter digraphs or trigraphs. My aim is for something simpler for the mahendo'sat. (But I'm not sure I'll be able to resist a few things to support writing Indian vowels and consonants, even though in the Chanur text, all we see are unaccented Latin letters, the basic 26, to transliterate.)
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starexplorer
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Quote:
 
I always took that the Chanur / Compact Space stories were set in the same Alliance-Union story-universe, and that the references in other books about intelligent life found out beyond Earth, in the opposite direction from Pell and Cyteen, was a reference to that.



BCS, I'll be interested in your research into the textual evidence. I was nearly certain the matter was left unresolvable.

I was also unaware of any pronouncement by CJC that Chanur was part of the U/A universe. Would be interested in support for that idea.
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BlueCatShip
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My contention toward her statements comes from her blog posts, but I'd need to hunt for quotes, unless it's conveniently available in her pages there on the Chanur books.

I will look through the books as i reread, and take notes. I am now in Ch. 5, near 6, but need to do another pass, because I had neglected to write down proofing notes on the Kindle ebook edition. Very oddly, it seems not to be using hard or soft hyphens, and I've run into an instance of the word mélée without accent marks, which CJ certainly would use on French words. Other than that, however, only two actual typos.

I'm past the scene with the uruus and dinner, where Tully first thells them about himself and what's happened and his species, but not where he's from. They're now jumpimg for another star after Urtur. Ah, and the spacesuit decoy has happened.

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starexplorer
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Here is CJC's own organization of her Universes. Note that she includes The Faded Sun books far down the timeline but in the A/U universe. She explicitly distinguishes the Chanur books, not including them in the same universe. Fwiw.
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BlueCatShip
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I am going to ask if the two are separate or together, the same story-universe. I note that her other SF books at the time are not on that page. That page dates from the late 90's to early 2000's and doesn't appear to have changed. The Foreigner books are separate, of course.

I wish we'd get new non-Foreigner books as well, but I don't know that we will, alas.

Her blog has some discussions among readers with her occasionally chiming in, regarding A/U Spoilers and an A/U Guide, but I'd need to read through it again. Besides that, she'll also answer on things on- or off-topic in her usual week's posts, and usually answers emails.

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starexplorer
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This gets into another important issue for me, which is that it's not what's in the author's mind that matters, but what's in the text. In other words, to me at this point :cherryh: is no longer the arbiter of the issue, it's what she wrote and how we interpret it that matters. Not that I'm not interested in her thoughts; I most certainly am. And she might still influence the matter by subsequent books if she so chose.

I remember quite a bit of conversation on this issue years ago in this community.
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starexplorer
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BCS, I tried to PM you this, but your message box is full, so I'll just post it here:

I'm wondering whether it would be ok with you if I split off the Chanur-A/U discussion from the Hani numbers thread you started. The two are distinct, and I think splitting them into two threads might promote more focused discussion.

Any objections?

starexplorer
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BlueCatShip
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Hi StarExplorer-ji. Sure, go ahead and split it, that makes good sense.
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hrhspence
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I asked CJ during my work on the Hani language if they were in the A/U universe and she said yes, but she doubted if there'd ever be a story with both as she had no plans to write more Chanur books.
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BlueCatShip
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I got an email sent off to CJC, and hope she doesn't roll her eyes too much at the fannish detail.

I did mention we were having a friendly discussion and I'd be just as OK with it if I'm mistaken on something.

Of course, she may say she purposefully left some things unsaid or she didn't fill those out in the back-story.

I also said we were not yet near, say, a bar fight over whether someone's coat was of a brownish color. ;)

Uh...and I did express wishes that she'd write another book in Compact space, or Alliance-Universe, though I know that will likely be after the current Foreigner trilogy. ...I realize she may continue with Foreigner instead, as her magnum opus, to complete it.

If I should receive a shipment of either Dinner or, say, terrifyin' space monkeys, from the northwest sector, I will, of course, let folks know. .... After clearing the engine room and the proverbial airducts ....

(I did not ask what hani would make of lions or housecats. That seemed a bit too far!)

(Auto-incorrect tried to change housecats to housecoats. I think the cats might get rather incensed at that. Pretty sure I would too. Certainly, any hani wouldn't tolerate such!)
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starexplorer
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Ok, how about this: I know there's no explicit reference or proof in the A/U books. Can anyone cite the relevant evidence in Chanur?
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Surtac
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Quote:
 
Ok, how about this: I know there's no explicit reference or proof in the A/U books. Can anyone cite the relevant evidence in Chanur?

Sorry folks, but as well as several implied references and generalised comments early in the text, there is an explicit reference to Earth's interaction with the Compact in Cyteen.

I'll dig out the page reference later.

The evidence in Chanur is also implicit: iirc it's a discussion between Py and Jik that includes a 'tail of the tiger' type reference.

:invert
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Hakkikt
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Indeed. CJ said [more recently than that page] that Tully's ship was Earther, not A or U, & that EC had deliberately explored for resources in Compact's direction due to losing control of Alliance & still needing to oppose Union in addition to Pell-centred Alliance. WWAS, and in emails to various of us.

ktktkttt Hkkt 1052 [2352GMT, 1653PST] Wed. 4 Feb. 2015.
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BlueCatShip
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Haven't heard back from CJC yet, but she may need a few days.

Later, I'll add the quote of Tully's first talk about his origins, at the dinner table after they get the uruus ready.

.i think there's a reference where they say that there are three human governments, and that disturbs Py about human thinking, and probably size and power of human space.

I also think we learn Earth has sent out exploratory missions, trying to gain a foothold on the opposite side from Pell and Cyteen.

Tully very specifically needs trank for jump,, "lke stsho," and hani and kif do not i don't recall if mahe do.

Tully is declared as a scan tech in the text.
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