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| Atevi Calorie Needs/metabolism; Or how much DOES a growing ateva consume | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 24 2010, 02:36 AM (1,206 Views) | |
| TravelerOfTheWays | Aug 24 2010, 02:36 AM Post #1 |
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I have so many questions about atevi anatomy, but I'll start with the one that's been on my mind as I've been reading Explorer. We've always known that the atevi are taller and broader than people, so much so that Bren, a tall guy among humans, is child/early teenager-sized to them. I'm a little confused on this, as he thinks at one point in this book that he's the height of a ten year old on Bindanda, but seven year old Cajeiri is as tall or a bit taller than he is. But this isn't the point of my post - Cajeiri might just be a tall kid. I love it when Ilisidi is chiding Bren for coddling Cajeiri, and Bren replies, quite truthfully, that Cajeiri IS taller than he. Bren observes pretty frequently how much the (relatively) tiny Ilisidi packs away, and I assume that this extends to a greater or lesser extends to most of the atevi he dines with. It probably is more notable with regards to Ilisidi because she's smaller than the rest of them. Anyway, I got to thinking that Cajeiri must consume a good deal even more than Ilisidi - he had a loooooot of body to grow into in a mere six to seven years! Even if atevi growth slows down earlier than human growth, which would seem to be the case, considering that Cajeiri has rather less height to grow into over the next several years than previously, gosh, I'm just stunned to think how much growing atevi put away. For that matter, I'm sure there are animals that grow that fast, but I don't know which ones and how much they eat. It must be tons, though. Do growing atevi put away their own body weight in fish and vegetables and seasonal meat per day?? Does anyone dare formulate an estimate, however vague and back-of-a-napkin?? Yes, I DO take matters of atevi anatomy very seriously, okay! That thread on eyes awhile back was fascinating. I also got sunburned recently and started peeling, and I was wondering if atevi experienced THAT (one would think so, but maybe it takes a lot more sun exposure to reach that level of damage, considering what I take to be the high melanin content of their skin). |
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| griffinmoon | Aug 24 2010, 06:00 AM Post #2 |
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Ranger
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TraveleroftheWays nadi: One might consider that the Atevi world is cooler than Earth (Bren's always cold unless its high summer in Shejidan--very humid then), Atevi mass* 1/3 (or so) more than a human, the fact that a couple of times Bren is noted to stand between Jago & Banichi to catch their heat (which he can feel) & lastly that Atevi were seen to graze massively on the Mospheiran buffet when Bren & Co returned from space. Then turn to the fact that current dietary calorie allotments for humans are 2000-2500 cal. (higher for those doing, say, military basic training). One could conclude that the average ateva can tidily put away 4000-5000 cal per meal (maybe more, say, if the individual were a large specimen like Banichi). An atevi child would be continually looking for edibles: higher metabolism for growth would demand it. Ilisidi, having to maintain the same metabolic rate as Banichi but having less body mass to do it with, would indeed need to pack it away. *not the same thing as weight in biophysics, nor is it linear. |
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| TravelerOfTheWays | Aug 24 2010, 09:31 PM Post #3 |
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Griffinmoon nadi, one had forgotten the temperature difference, thank you for the reminder. I'm usually the person in the room who's freezing, and I sympathize strongly with Bren when the cold is mentioned. In order to stay as warm as they do, atevi metabolism must burn pretty hot. And thank you for the estimates - it helps me wrap my head about things just a little better having numbers like that. |
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| ready | Aug 28 2010, 01:37 AM Post #4 |
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Member Mathematicians Guild
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Ah, but the larger the body, the better the heat retention and the less the ratio of body surface to body mass. The smaller that ratio, the lower the caloric needs. Horses eat a lot of roughage such as hay (low calorie/high bulk)but their food intake still averages less than ten pounds a day. Even horses in Olympic training do not eat as large a proportion of their body weight as a human or a dog. The old saw about eating like a horse or a bird is non-sense. Hummingbirds consume up to a third of the body weight a day while horses eat from one-half of one to two percent of their body weight daily depending on activity. Humans consume about the same weight of food as a pony. If atevi body mass were double a human's body mass, they would probably eat about 40 to 60% additional, IF their metabolism was similar to a human's. There is no telling the biochemistry involved and how efficient their metabolisms are. Also, there is no telling the effect of the alkaloids on their digestion. This is one of those "we'll never know" sort of questions, unless the atevi actually exist in some corner of the universe. |
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| BlueCatShip | Aug 29 2010, 03:01 AM Post #5 |
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Unlabelled Browncoat Scaper
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Bren is probably impressed by Ilisidi's eating because he thinks of a senior citizen as eating less. However, some older people actually need to eat more to maintain their body weight, because their bodies are no longer processing their food well. Also, if Bren's people use rejuv, then he may be used to much older people eating about like normal, unless they are very old indeed, or eat more than usual. An ateva infant and child probably eats amazing amounts, but that would level off to some degree, just prior to adolescence / puberty. Then, during the equivalent of the teenage years for an ateva, the appetite would skyrocket to complete development and to prepare for mating and childbearing, much like it does among humans, only compressed and accelerated to their life cycle. How much exactly? At a guess, I'd figure a pre-adolescent or new adolescent like Cajeiri would eat about twice as much as a human at that stage, since his body mass and height are already more than Bren's. Perhaps three times as much, given the faster or compressed rate at which atevi mature. That's possibly as good a guess as any, unless CJC has other reasons and she says differently. |
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| magicdomino | Aug 29 2010, 04:07 PM Post #6 |
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Also, Ilisidi is pretty active for an old lady with a cane. When she isn't riding mecheiti, she probably does some kind of exercise. Besides the exercise with Cenedi, that is. :innocent I've been wondering if atevi children mature faster than human children of the same age. The ninth birthday celebration in Conspirator is described as a "child's coming-to-notice" which sounds a bit like a bat mitzvah (12 to 13 years) or a QuinceaƱera (15 years). Atevi years may also be longer than Earth years. |
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| rosebladeaureliuskcir | Aug 29 2010, 05:23 PM Post #7 |
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Machimi Writer in Hiding
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Consider also: we see Bren at breakfast and supper with atevi; occasionally at tea, but I don't recall a single 'lunch' scene with a crowd. Perhaps the intake is large at breakfast and dinner, but light grazing throughout the day...unless they're doing something that involves running and riding (and shooting). In that case, there are several scenes of atevi putting sandwiches into pockets, since they don't know if they will get to stop and eat at night. When at dinner or breakfast, Bren is the smallest one there by at least 1/3 height/width/body mass. Between that and the two consistent meals we see Bren and guests eating, it's no wonder the amount packed away is larger. Then again, everything is scaled up about that much, so the size of a plate 1/3 as large a normal human plate is a small human-sized tray. re: Cajeiri's size There were several mentions that aijiin mature more quickly than other atevi children--could this be in all aspects, growth included? If that is the case, it's no wonder that Cajeiri at 7 was Bren's height, but over the next 2 years, he didn't seem to grow much vertically, even though his shoulders did get wider and from that we can conjecture packing on more muscle. The scene with the borrowed coat in Destroyer/Pretender (can't recall which offhand) indicated that Cajeiri was a bit taller than Bren, but had to be careful of the seams in the shoulders. Before, the impression was of a younger build, but on a kid about the same height. On the other hand, I don't remember if it's mentioned how much or how often Cajeiri needs to eat, though the young man from Dur (formerly the impetuous boy from Dur) did, in Inheritor, put sandwiches in his pockets for the flight from Mogari-nai to Dur, and Bren supposed it was against starvation during the flight. He was a teenager, still considered a minor. There was no such repeat scene in Pretender, though, now that he is in his 20s. I'd be more concerned about Cajeiri keeping his trainee-bodyguard fed--teenagers who are in heavy physical training? Hope Bren keeps a very well-stocked cabinet! |
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| Xheralt | Aug 31 2010, 08:02 AM Post #8 |
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I think future aijiin "growing up quicker" was meant in the mental/emotional sense, not the physical ones. How many atevi peasant kids would have had to go through the sorts of things (meeting foreigners, running for one's life, fighting back, courtly speech and considerations) that Cajeiri has? |
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| Sabina | Aug 31 2010, 02:55 PM Post #9 |
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Shai-Shan Service Staff, assassin
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I was under the impression that the growing up part was also in the relation of the physical. It's part of the eighth birthday party gripping. Page 9 paperback edition has Ilisidi saying that puberty is coming and then things would occur to him. And later on page 14 the proposed slumber party and having Irene in the same bad, there are hints again that the change isn't only psychological and emotional. |
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| BlueCatShip | Aug 31 2010, 03:44 PM Post #10 |
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Unlabelled Browncoat Scaper
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There could well be a difference between groups. * The poor, uneducated, underfed, worse medical care, these atevi, whether country or city people, would not mature as fast or have advantages in thinking and in experience. * The wealthy, educated, well-fed, better medical care, these atevi, also whether country or city people, would mature faster and would have advantages in thinking and in experience. The second group would mature, physically and mentally, just that slight bit faster, whether a month or a year or two. This has been happening in human populations over the last century. Eventually, it reaches the physical limit. Better food, medical care, education, more money, better living conditions -- they make a huge difference. So it may be that atevi who are likely to become aijiin or others have, usually but not always, better advantages. But that's in general, not always. A poor country boy or girl could still become aijiin. I'm intending a tendency, not a certainty. |
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| spiderdavon | Aug 31 2010, 06:52 PM Post #11 |
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TaCom Chief Tactical Commander
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Yes, but do the Atevi have an under-nourished unhealthy underclass? It's always struck me that the "ordinary" blokes are quite well looked after. To do otherwise probably isn't kabui. |
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| Miranda | Aug 31 2010, 09:37 PM Post #12 |
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The comments on diet and general health that Bluecatship made are one of the reasons I want a family tree to include birth weight and length along with adult height and build. In Deliverer, Bren is clearly described as coming up to Jago's shoulder. The 2000 calories that Griffinmoon mentioned would be the human male. As a female leading a more sedentary lifestyle, 1200 calories or less would be plenty for me. For Ateva I would have to see a comparison chart of very tall humans and caloric needs to begin to guess. On a related topic, I've wondered at times at the facilities within the Bujavid. Exercise facilities? Pools? Now, for the off-the-wall-this-person-needs-help remark: I have wondered at times how many White Castles it would take to feed Banichi? Small square burgers with meat 1/4 of an inch thick, steamed onions and five steam holes. Maybe an ounce of meat? The basic McD burger is larger. The average teenage male eats a dozen White Castles. If it's not a White Castle. It's not a slider. |
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| TravelerOfTheWays | Sep 2 2010, 02:00 PM Post #13 |
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All fascinating replies, thank you! I love thinking about the little aspects of the Foreigner universe like this. I'm always astounded by the number of eggs the atevi put away! This question made me laugh. A mound, to be sure, but that's as far as my estimating goes. Obviously Banichi wouldn't ever eat a White Castle burger because of the farmed beef, but it's a wonderful mental image, Banichi sitting down to a table just piled as tall as possible with White Castle sliders :atevi. |
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| Xheralt | Sep 2 2010, 04:38 PM Post #14 |
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semi- :ot2 recollection: Many years ago, went to MarCon in Columbus, OH (my only time ever there), riding with two friends who'd grown up there but now lived where I am. Along the route, a White Castle in the middle of nowhere, just farm fields, only buildings were it and a White Castle meat processing plant across the highway. My friends affectionately referred to sliders as "ratburgers" (yes, I said "affectionately"), and wanted to stop. This location had a "certificate of achievement" for being the "Cleanest Site" for that year. Of course, off the beaten path, not a lot of business, plenty of time to clean. Anyway, upon seeing the sign, I quip "this must mean they shampoo the rats first..." whereupon my friends totally crack up... :innocent |
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| spiderdavon | Sep 2 2010, 07:00 PM Post #15 |
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TaCom Chief Tactical Commander
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I had to Google White Castle - I don't think they've found their way over here yet. Steamed mini-burgers, yes? I thought "sliders" was a US Navy term, presumably because they're so greasy they slide right off the table when the ship rolls.... |
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