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Destroyer Question: Number Of Colonists At Reunion
Topic Started: Apr 16 2008, 06:07 PM (3,076 Views)
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Quote:
 
The ability to get away from an irritant is necessary for one's peace/sanity.


Well said nandi!
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agricola
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I was thinking more of an island - like the station maybe - or something off the coast - WAY off the coast - remember, there was talk of a trade CITY - presumably a coastal location, with some degree of security...

Come to think of it, there probably already is some kind of 'list' for 'say this = mean that' kind of communication.
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pence

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The interface on the station also works because all the Mospheirans chose to be there. No zenophobics need apply!
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Chanor-ji

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griffinmoon,May 21 2008
11:52 PM
Nadiin:
One suspects that there would be wholesale Contracts Filed on atevi who-- en masse even--would bring that much "contamination" to the Mainland. Please recollect the assassinated teacher of the computer-access-only scholastic exchange program. One also suspects the same reaction should "swarms" of humans come to the mainland for cultural immersion to things atevi.
Now, Mosphiera might not care about humans getting even more atevi culture--as long as their on Mosphieran soil.You can bet there'd be a lot of nerveous humans if there were Atevi on Mosphiera learning Things Human!
One could say that the atevi/human interface on the station works, not only because of the common polite phrases that get everybody by, but because either species can retire from a situation into their own zone (& quietly say/think "Idiot" of the other one in safety). The ability to get away from an irritant is necessary for one's peace/sanity.

The problem with that, Griffinmoon nadi, is that contact is inevitable, so that contact must be regulated lest there be another War.

I don't envision "hordes" of atevi visiting Mospheira or Mospheirans visiting the mainland. But commerce will require an interface, and Bren is not always available. And that's why I suggested a Paidhi's Guild. The members of the Paidhi's Guild would be very carefully vetted and very carefully trained.
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griffinmoon
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It has been mentioned before that there's a lively smuggling of art & artifacts between mainland & island. Certainly the smugglers have evolved some sort of argot.
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Arianne_Luinithil
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Hmm. How far can you get on signs alone? I mean, I could imagine a human smuggler simply telling his atevi counterpart he wants three cases of rare glass figurines or something with a triad of fingers and pointing.
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quicksilver
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I think that atevi probably learnt few words in Mosphei' so they could say what they want.But probably atevi were bringing what They thought would be interesting to humans and humans were bringing bits of electronics and then it was down to bargaining.
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Arianne_Luinithil
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quicksilver,May 23 2008
02:00 PM
But probably atevi were bringing what They thought would be interesting to humans and humans were bringing bits of electronics and then it was down to bargaining.

*snort* Somehow when I imagine that scenario, it looks strangely like someone's sitting down to gamble--take a chance that what your supplier brings the next time won't be a flop, or dangerous, or both.
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megrave
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Any form of smuggling is a risk, also diagrams and drawings negate the need for language.
A Paidhi guild is certainly workable, but how many parents would encourage their children to study Atevi, bearing in mind how much trouble Bren has gotten into?
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Xheralt
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Perhaps there, and/or on the station, a creole of the numbers-lacking children's language and Mosphei' would develop? Or maybe a minimal-numbers variation within easier reach of average human computational capability? ...although our Bren set the top end of the curve pretty high...
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Arianne_Luinithil
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Xheralt,May 25 2008
03:25 PM
Perhaps there, and/or on the station, a creole of the numbers-lacking children's language and Mosphei' would develop? Or maybe a minimal-numbers variation within easier reach of average human computational capability? ...although our Bren set the top end of the curve pretty high...

The numbers would have to be very minimal indeed--most people don't learn to think in mathematics when they want to open their mouth after all, and probably find it impossible to do so anyway. Personally I'd foul everything up if I were to try adult Ragi, never mind the court language--my mathematical reasoning is highly suspect! :grin And doesn't Herself suck at mathematics anyhow?

Bren is an exception to the norm: the end product of a helluva lot of selection, training, training, training, selection, selection, selection, more training, selection, selection, selection, and again with the training. If we plotted a graph of human experience versus Mospheiran population numbers with each individual represented on the graph, his dot would be so far above the normal curve he might as well be an alien, and he IS--an alien to normal human lifestyles by choice and by circumstance. :atwink

He's the exception on an island of several hundred thousand people--the one person who can successfully and regularly stand outside his own species viewpoint and behaviour as well as calculate nassty sums on the fly like he*k, well enough that humans don't piss off the neighbours when talking to them through the intermediary--him; and to do it while still keeping some form of emotional health and stability(didn't end up like Wilson, in other words).

Even then Bren is still some way off from perfect fluency--no one would accuse him of being less than proficient in Ragi, and this paidhi-aiji is probably the best and the closest to atevi since the time of First Contact, but it's clear that his understanding of atevi language is still slanted human-wise due to his original training and plain old "not born to it" genetics: the human incapability of getting at gut level what atevi mean by using certain words that lead to possible misinterpretations--remember kurdi?

And this failure to realise the gaps in Mospheiran compiled word-lists/definitions as opposed to how atevi use the words, as well as his failure (or perhaps enforced inability? Atevi don't talk to him at all on the issue of childrearing, after all, and I'd say that's important for understanding any species, the knowledge of how they go through their formative stages) to understand the finer details of atevi culture until they're presented smack in the face is what will keep him from achieving that fluency.

Sometimes, one must know the culture behind the language to understand what a native speaker means by a certain phrase or word. Bren knows enough not to get into trouble and to get out of trouble, but not enough for full understanding, I think.
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hrhspence
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I asked CJ this same question (didn't she have difficulties with Math?) she answered: "I'm not bad at math; I just don't like to do it." And yet she says her math is tau cetian or not standard Earther math.
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Gent
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Here's another question:

In Destroyer, the Aiji mentions that the students were warned of an impending raid "by computer messages", and fled along with the materials.

However, by the time Cajieri is talking about computer networks in Deliverer, the Aiji seems to feel the concept of computer messages is a novel suggestion.

Wazzupwidat?
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Sandor

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In a similar way, don't we read about Bren's security getting messages at the security desk that sound an awful lot like email?

One suspects (in small part because one likes to assume that CJC is all knowing and never mixes up her facts :) ) that in both cases, the networks are outside of the IT Department's (Messenger's Guild) cognizance. These networks are self-contained in my opinion, whereas Cajeiri wants to create a network that cuts across the specialized Guild requirements to general purpose computing and messaging. Hum...
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agricola
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I kind of got the impression that the security office messages were more like telegrams or voice mail or some such - earlier tech than email. Cajeiri certainly seemed to have in mind communication MUCH more directly person to person, rather than the security/messenger filtered round about (typical atevi style) route (tell your security to tell so and so's security that you would like to tell so and so ....). Cajeiri talked about messages that waited around to be read, that caused actions to be taken automatically by computerized processes, and messages broadcast to great numbers of people simultaneously - rather than messages that passed from single point person to single point person. Think broadcast TV rather than Morse code telegram.

Also the students at the university are clearly FAR more 'up' on technological matters than the run of the mill ateva. Even Tabini can't know EVERYTHING. But perhaps he DOES know about the computer whizzes at the university (bet he does, actually) but that doesn't mean he wants that generally spread around, and common knowledge, either.

After all, where did the warning message to the students COME FROM, if not from Tabini at Mogari Nai? who wouldn't bet our Tabini sent more than a few messages before he split? To the shuttle crews to split up and go to cover, to the university ditto, to certain offices in Shejidan (like Bren's perhaps)...all to make things as difficult as possible for the usurper.

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