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Destroyer Question: Number Of Colonists At Reunion
Topic Started: Apr 16 2008, 06:07 PM (3,077 Views)
Gent
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agricola,May 16 2008
03:47 PM
... concludes that Ramirez has functioned LIKE a father to Jase...

Perhaps Ramirez was also a son of Taylor - making them akin to brothers!
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Xheralt
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I just want to address one thing overlooked earlier ('cola-ji's question?). There are no Reseune-style birth labs on Phoenix -- and possibly not anywhere in the atevi universe/fiction -- so that Jase does have a birth-mother. He spoke with her from the planet in Inheritor. What is not known exactly is whether Taylor's Children are born of simple insemination, and thus are half current shipfolk bloodline and half archived bloodline, or if the birth-mother is a surrogate, with both sperm and egg drawn from Archive. If women were exempted from (kept away from) hazardous outside work, it may be the former.

Taylor's Children exist outside of the usual familial cousin-connections, save through their (surrogate) mothers. Ramirez was quite the insider, and his children received the patronage (nepotism?) of their breeding, being tracked into command. Regardless of ability or inclination. This is why I'm certain Ramirez is not a Taylor's. Pity the shy would-be engineer born of a Captain!

If Jase or Yolanda are or are not close to the natural children of their (surrogate) mothers, well, we've seen that in blended families here and now.

I am not convinced that there are ten Taylors alive now...the only ones mentioned as current are Yolanda and Jase, and I do recall that Ramirez dipping into the Taylor-archive for the two of them was thought remarkable enough. Again, I haven't found the reference that stated "there have only been ten Taylors, ever, since the Archive was created" but I'm fairly certain I recollect it correctly. It's most likely in Inheritor, Precursor, or Defender.
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Tevia

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My memory has it that Ramirez had been married, but his wife was dead. That he and wife had two children, one son and one daughter, both privileged into the 'command track' (which I think we pretty much decided meant pilot training).

Yes agricola I remember that also. Almost verbatim.
However, perhaps Im reading this wrong, but in Precursor, First Paperback Printing 2000 Page 362, Bren and Jago have just returned from meeting Banichi - who is hiding with the shot Ramirez.

"Who are Ramirez' kin?" Jago asked, straight to the point. "Is it not Jase? Do I not recall Ramirez has no descendants?"

"Jase. Jase and Yolanda. Ramirez's wife died long ago. Her network remains attached to him, one gathers. ...." [this is Bren speaking].

These two statements led me to consider Jase and Yolanda as the two children "in command track".
Or perhaps the "real" two children were left at Reunion - I'm sure I can't say either for sure. Just thoughts ...
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Xheralt
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Jase was not supposed to become a Captain. His and Yolanda's educational path was the very antithesis of command training, think 'communications specialist' instead. If he were one of the "command-tracked" children, none of the difficulties he had learning to BE a Captain, once Ramirez put him in the seat, would have happened, not to mention Jase's inability to access certain video feeds! It is just the circumstances -- his ability to deal with languages and Tamun's mutiny -- left him as the best available choice.

I do have to wonder, though, at the apparent situation that no other potential Captains-in-training were already in the command-track pipeline, waiting in the wings. There should have been a pool to draw another from, to at least have a fourth on board -- or third, given that Ogun stayed behind. If it's because of contamination via association with Tamun, fine, all it takes is one throwaway line to SAY so. Or maybe a policy to have only one Captain-in-training at a time?!
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Surtac
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I do have to wonder, though, at the apparent situation that no other potential Captains-in-training were already in the command-track pipeline, waiting in the wings. There should have been a pool to draw another from, to at least have a fourth on board -- or third, given that Ogun stayed behind. If it's because of contamination via association with Tamun, fine, all it takes is one throwaway line to SAY so. Or maybe a policy to have only one Captain-in-training at a time?!

Yes, that seems particularly strange to me that there seems to be no defined succession planning, even if there is known factionalism within the command group. Contrast that with the junior captains setup in Finity's End. It's not like Phoenix has access to suitably trained personnel from other ships as a last resort, is it?

:invert
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Arianne_Luinithil
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It IS curious, and perhaps a little troubling that succession should be so--wishy-washy. I mean, this is SPACE--sh*t happens, accidents kill. You'd think that there'd be some order of succession if a Captain needed replacing. Unless of course they were relying on Reunion for that.
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agricola
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I had the STRONG impression that the surviving captains had to get together and VOTE on who would join them as captain - when a vacancy came up earlier, Sabin nominated Tamun, who was approved (simple majority? 2 out of 3?) and then when Ramirez was shot he declared Tamun OUT and Jase in as fourth chair, and Ogun seconded it and Sabin agreed.
When Ramirez died, the idea I gathered was that they were just flat too busy to elect a fourth, and couldn't, until Sabin, Jase and Ogun could get together and pick somebody (presumably out of a pool of pilots). I expect in the next book that there may be a fourth captain - unless exposure to the Atevi make 'four' a very unlucky number!

As for the missing Ramirez children - yes, I remember Bren saying R's wife was dead and he had no children - so (likely) Herself simply forgot about them or !
or -
they were at Reunion, and assumed (by everybody) to be dead.
they are in training someplace, and nobody has ever mentioned them at all, and Bren ASSUMES they are dead, but they are perhaps just kids.
they actually ARE dead.
they ran away from home, changed their names and are living with Pyanfar.

How should I know? They disappeared between one book and the next.


It is certainly easy to read the refs with Banichi when Ramirez is missing, as indicating that R's 'two children' are actually referring to Jase and Yolanda -

AND -
in fact, I wondered about that - if Ramirez authorized their births, maybe he IS considered their 'father' in some kind of semi-legal sense - a very distant one, certainly.

In which case, the information 'privileged into command track' is deceptive. Which would not be totally unexpected from the ship. They are very secretive in a lot of ways. Maybe Y. and J. ARE considered 'command track' simply because they aren't anything ELSE. (not mechanics, not tech specialists, etc).

I don't like Yolanda. Why don't I like Yolanda? I actually 'trust' Barb a little more than Yolanda. And I don't 'trust' Barb very far.

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ready
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I don't like Yolanda. Why don't I like Yolanda?


My dissatisfaction with Yolanda is based on the fact that she has everything that Bren thinks he wants as far as life goals and yet she isn't happy with it. After reading nine books from Bren's view point it is hard to stand back and not wish him the happiness he deserves (the Goddess certainly knows how to create a character that grabs one's sympathies). Even when Bren is at his nit-picking, dissecting, over-analytical, even neurotic, most irritating self (as when he's perpetually wondering whether he has done the right thing and what he could have done better), you still want him to be happy and fulfilled, because he's basically a good person, and we all can recognize our reactions in his actions, and his worries as our own.

Bren is exactly what the atevi world needs yet he can't see the forest for all the trees.

Yolanda can't see the happiness she could have by just living in the moment. She desperately wanted the regard of Ramirez, who was never going to give it to her. Maybe Ramirez say the truth about her - that her ambitions would never let her be the highly regarded leader she desired to be.
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agricola
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1) I want Grigiji to get to space and see everything he wants so much to see.
2) I want Bren to have an actual vacation without anything blowing up.
3) I want Cajeiri to grow up and be able to meet his old associates again on the ship - although I don't think they are going to have a lot in common anymore, I think they will always have 'cordial' feelings.
4) I want Geigi to succeed with those stupid fish and that ridiculous 'fish escape' valve.
5) I want the Mospheiran legislature to get their heads out of their collective ass and get their priorities realigned.
6) I want to know where Cosadi is.
7) I want to find out if Toby is actually a secret undercover agent for Shawn Tyers with the job of keeping an eye on brother Bren, with that little quiet sailing ship right off the coast, so VERY conveniently - and apparently with some VERY good electronics on it...


Bren did an awfully good job of getting Jase up to speed with Ragi and even getting Yolanda to a tolerable level - I think the university's language program ought to consider having him run some kind of total immersion ulpan program maybe at his coastal estate, for the better students in the Ragi program - they still HAVE one, I suppose, although there doesn't seem to be an actual 'be the paidhi someday' prize for the best one anymore.

He could teach atevi to speak Mospheiran at the same time. Might as well. Everybody seems to be picking up bits and pieces - they might as well make it official and keep a lid on it a little bit.

Why isn't there a pidgin developing? IS there a pidgin developing? If the kyo are better at Ragi, then the Mospheirans and the ship folk had better buckle down and pick it up a bit.

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magicdomino

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agricola,May 21 2008
02:40 AM


Why isn't there a pidgin developing? IS there a pidgin developing? If the kyo are better at Ragi, then the Mospheirans and the ship folk had better buckle down and pick it up a bit.

I imagine there is a pidgin developing among the station dockworkers, where atevi and humans are most likely to interact. They can't drop everything to get a real translater, and there are plenty of situations that won't be in the official phrase book.

As for Toby, we tend to forget who used to race Bren down those steep snowy ski slopes. :flower: Now that Toby is free of Mama's expectations and Jill's ties, he is much more lively than Bren expects. Perhaps more than Barb expects . . .
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pence

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There is also the prospect of a lot of private enterprise paidhis with all the commerce starting up. Shawn should be keeping a close eye on that, so the paidhi's department may still be a government monopoly.
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Chanor-ji

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agricola,May 20 2008
09:40 PM
1) I want Grigiji to get to space and see everything he wants so much to see.
2) I want Bren to have an actual vacation without anything blowing up.
3) I want Cajeiri to grow up and be able to meet his old associates again on the ship - although I don't think they are going to have a lot in common anymore, I think they will always have 'cordial' feelings.
4) I want Geigi to succeed with those stupid fish and that ridiculous 'fish escape' valve.
5) I want the Mospheiran legislature to get their heads out of their collective ass and get their priorities realigned.
6) I want to know where Cosadi is.
7) I want to find out if Toby is actually a secret undercover agent for Shawn Tyers with the job of keeping an eye on brother Bren, with that little quiet sailing ship right off the coast, so VERY conveniently - and apparently with some VERY good electronics on it...


Bren did an awfully good job of getting Jase up to speed with Ragi and even getting Yolanda to a tolerable level - I think the university's language program ought to consider having him run some kind of total immersion ulpan program maybe at his coastal estate, for the better students in the Ragi program - they still HAVE one, I suppose, although there doesn't seem to be an actual 'be the paidhi someday' prize for the best one anymore.

He could teach atevi to speak Mospheiran at the same time. Might as well. Everybody seems to be picking up bits and pieces - they might as well make it official and keep a lid on it a little bit.

Why isn't there a pidgin developing? IS there a pidgin developing? If the kyo are better at Ragi, then the Mospheirans and the ship folk had better buckle down and pick it up a bit.

Wonderful posting, nadi! So many, many things to cogitate over.

Yes, it would be wonderful if Grigiji could go into space. The old gentleman deserves it for preventing an atevi civil war after Hanks dropped the FTL bomb on atevi society.

Yes, too, for Lord Geigi and his fish. I :salad: Geigi. He is like Cajeiri in some ways: a blast of fresh air blowing through traditional atevi society because of his scientific education and his willingness to try out new things. Yet, at the same time, he remains very high in the Dowager's regard, suggesting that he is able to maintain a clever balance between traditional atevi culture and beliefs and all the novelties emanating from Mospheira and Phoenix.

I hadn't thought about Toby being Shawn's secret agent, but it makes sense. Through Bren, Shawn and Toby have met on a social basis in the past, and Shawn knows that Toby is always welcome at Bren's coastal estate. And while Shawn may not know the specifics of Toby possessing a copy of the forbidden mainland coastal charts, I'm sure he suspects Toby has better knowledge of the coastal areas than just about any other Mospheiran.

Quote:
 
He could teach atevi to speak Mospheiran at the same time. Might as well. Everybody seems to be picking up bits and pieces - they might as well make it official and keep a lid on it a little bit.

Why isn't there a pidgin developing? IS there a pidgin developing? If the kyo are better at Ragi, then the Mospheirans and the ship folk had better buckle down and pick it up a bit.


I suspect that the "bits and pieces" and "pidgin" might be a problem. Don't forget: It was by assuming that each side knew what the other side was thinking and feeling that led to the War of the Landing, and the creation of the paidhi's office. Where Bren might do the best good is by helping create an elementary language program based on the atevi's children's language that would grease the wheels of everyday living. Only this time, both sides would recognize each other's differences and not leap to conclusions.

And pence is absolutely right about the need to police freelance paidhis. Maybe both the mainland and Mospheira should develope an ironclad policy that any professionally employed paidhi -- whether human or atevi -- must be certified as being sufficiently proficient by Bren himself, maybe after a year long apprenticeship or something like that. At first it would be quite an imposition on Bren, but as he developed a cadre of individuals fluent enough to meet his standards, some of them could take a hand in the certification process. Taking this a step further, perhaps there could be a Paidhi Guild. The Assassins Guild seems able to maintain its integrity and standards (except for one notable lapse that I am sure it will ensure never happens again). Why not a Paidhi Guild? Bring in potential paidhis as children. Children's brains are flexible enough to absorb intense language training. Instill in them the idea of serving a higher cause, that of being a bridge between two or even three (the Kyo) cultures.

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marcia

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Chanor-ji,May 21 2008
01:20 PM
Why not a Paidhi Guild? Bring in potential paidhis as children. Children's brains are flexible enough to absorb intense language training.  Instill in them the idea of serving a higher cause, that of being a bridge between two or even three (the Kyo) cultures.


Cajeiri is a wonderful example of the flexibility of children's minds when it comes to learning language. He learned to speak Mospheiran and ship-speak without anyone actually teaching him (indeed, Ilisidi would not have been pleased to learn that he could speak these languages). And he also learn kyo.
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agricola
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a Paidhi GUILD - now that makes sense - except i'd bet you MONEY that a certain EXISTING Guild would argue that paidhi'in belong in THEIR guild (Messengers!)

Sometime when Bren has nothing better to do (!) he really ought to build a decent learnable pidgin and call it something useful like 'tradespeech' and have EVERYBODY use it.

Languages mutate and grow on their own (Bren admits he is totally innocent of some of the 'borrow words' that the atevi are using). Countries like France and Israel have 'official language offices' that research and choose 'proper' names for things - but people on the street may or may not use them - in France it's l'weekend' and 'l'cocktail' and in Israel it's 'televisia' and 'radio' and none of those were sanctioned by the 'official language police'.

But he could certainly set up a framework to start on - and maybe he HAS - he does have that dictionary and lots of the ship people and the station atevi and humans are communicating at least a little. Kaplan does, Ginny does.

Cajeiri picked up THREE alien languages (granted that ship language and Mospheiran aren't exactly alike) and he did it really fast. Either he's super smart (well, yes) or kids are just naturally faster (also true).



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griffinmoon
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Nadiin:
One suspects that there would be wholesale Contracts Filed on atevi who-- en masse even--would bring that much "contamination" to the Mainland. Please recollect the assassinated teacher of the computer-access-only scholastic exchange program. One also suspects the same reaction should "swarms" of humans come to the mainland for cultural immersion to things atevi.
Now, Mosphiera might not care about humans getting even more atevi culture--as long as their on Mosphieran soil.You can bet there'd be a lot of nerveous humans if there were Atevi on Mosphiera learning Things Human!
One could say that the atevi/human interface on the station works, not only because of the common polite phrases that get everybody by, but because either species can retire from a situation into their own zone (& quietly say/think "Idiot" of the other one in safety). The ability to get away from an irritant is necessary for one's peace/sanity.
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