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Chanor-ji Wonders ...
Topic Started: Mar 17 2008, 11:50 PM (1,790 Views)
Surtac
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Antipodean Assassin
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Newest associate Chanor-ji has posed some interesting questions in his initial post, which unfortunately languishes unseen behind the Guilds security screens. So I have copied it here for other associates to ponder.
Quote:
 
Happy St. Patrick's Day!

I am a longtime reader of the Foreigner series, and I'm really glad to have found this forum since nobody else around me shares my obsession for the Foreigner universe.

I tried to add to a topic on the Archives about what plot developments one would like to see in upcoming volumes, except it wouldn't let me. So I'm putting my 2 cents here:

I realize I'm getting into this rather late in the game, but I'm really glad I'm not the only one wondering if Cenedi is Banichi's father. And if so, is it a tradition in Banichi's family to join the Guild?

I would like to know about Jago's mother. Is she still alive? Does Jago ever interact with her?

I would like to know more about the inner workings of the Guild. Jago, Banichi, Tano and Algini seem to speak fairly freely about Guild matters in front of Bren. I hope the Divine One sees fit to use them to dribble out a few more tidbits.

I really would like to see Cajeiri interact more with his human associates. I had always assumed that one of Tabini's motives for packing Cajeiri off to outer space was to allow him to interact with humans to a much larger degree than any other atevi since the War (or maybe even before the War.) With the Dowager to keep his feet firmly planted in atevi culture, and Bren to interpret and explain nuances that were glossed over in the previous human-atevi interaction, Cajeiri is in a unique position. I see Cajeiri becoming the ultimate bridge between atevi and humans.

I'm also a little curious about Wilson-paidi. In the first couple of books, it was implied that Wilson had become so atevi-ized that he was no longer able to interact properly with humans. How deep into atevi culture was he able to penetrate? Was his relationship with Tabini's father all smooth sailing? Or were there rough spots that produced new human knowledge of atevi?


Fresh :t is also being served in the Welcome thread.

:invert
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Aelith
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Welcome Chanor-ji. All good questions. I also thought that one of the goals for Cajeiri was to be a bridge between the races: but also not to be completly dependent on an interperter in the future.

Humm, I had just the opposite impression of Willson.
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Xheralt
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I would say our new associate is partially right about Wilson-ji. Yes, WIlson-paidhi thoroughly assimilated atevi manners, and guardedness, even when returned to human society. But I think he was *too* guarded, played it *too* safe, as did most padhiin preceeding them, to penetrate deeply. His understanding of atevi culture would be limited by the fact that he would *keep* them walled off, where Bren has been able to bridge human-style friendship with atevi-style association (and, dare one say, man'chiin) by becoming involved with his household, even before it was formally declared to be such.

Of course, much of this is sheer speculation, given the general lack of presentation in canon.

And no doubt, other feelings of friendliness have ended badly in the past, The War aside.
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joekc6nlx
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My, my, all good questions, Chanor-ji.

I for one have never thought of Cenedi having any relation to Banichi, although I'm sure it's possible. We don't know where Cenedi's home province lies, although we do know Banichi is southern.

...and what IS Algini's rank within the Guild, such that he is pretty high up, that he had no man'chi toward Bren, but rather now has it toward Tano?
Recall that Algini is the more reticent of the two.

I would have liked to know more about Jago's mother, but given that atevi marriages are contracted only for a few years in most cases, it's possible that Jago's mother is in fact Guild, but no longer figures in the picture, since she may be irrelevant to :cherryh: 's storyline.

As for Cajieri interacting with humans more, I think 2 years of interacting have pretty much saturated him with human-ness. But, that's also a good thing, because an aiji who has been brought up atevi, but also has had close interactions with humans, would be a bridge for both cultures.

I agree with Xheralt's assessment of Wilson-paidhi. One finds that when closely associated with an entirely different culture, one tends either to become overly protective of their own culture, or else, overly protective of the other culture. Not that I'm an expert on cultures, just been exposed to many different cultures throughout my travels.

Bren-paidhi is special in that he has not only the natural talent to speak ateva, he also can assimilate himself much more easily into the culture. Remember Jase's accusation that Bren "Just can't turn it off".

I certainly hope that the canons are more forthcoming with answers to Chanor-ji's questions.
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pence

Citizen of the Association
One has also wondered if there was a Jago equivalent in Wilsons life. (maybe this is policy to keep tabs on the Padhi?) If she was guild and was killed in the assassination of Tabini's father this might be reason for his abrupt retirement?

One also ponders how parental associations combine/ conflict/ are cancelled by/ or modified by manchi in adult atevi?

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Xheralt
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Bren has admitted that previous paidhiin had made the attempt, but didn't phrase it in a way that indicated recentness. Wilson is implied to be stuffy, so I doubt it of him. Now, if he had been shown as sanctimonious, I would have been suspicious, sanctimonious people are usually the worst offenders...
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magicdomino

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Our impression of Wilson is filtered through Bren's eyes. I can easily imagine a clash between an elderly man used to the slower, much more polite pace of the mainland, and a newly graduated-at-the-top-of-his-class young know-it-all. It's possible that a lot of Wilson's crankiness was simply because he hated living on Mospheira.

Spending most of one's life isolated from one's friends and family makes it difficult to maintain those relationships. Bren loses contact with his university friends and all relatives except his brother, despite access to airplanes and telephones. It would be even more difficult with only letters and a long train/ship ride once a year or so (Airplanes arrived on the mainland during Wilson's watch, but we don't know when.)

Banichi hints that Wilson was more reserved, or at least much different from Bren. Wilson may have learned the hard way about atevi making poor friends. As a mere court official, he would not attract manchi. While there may well have been amusing companions, and even a pretty lady or two (though probably not a high-ranking Guild Assassin :atwink ), in the long run, they would follow their manchi and leave Wilson.
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Chanor-ji

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Pence said:
Quote:
 
One has also wondered if there was a Jago equivalent in Wilsons life. (maybe this is policy to keep tabs on the Padhi?)


I had wondered that myself, although not suspecting systemic spying upon the Paidhi. Nor had I considered that such a woman would have been a victim of the assassination of Valasi.

As for Wilson immediately returning to Mopheira after Valasi's assassination, I came to two different conclusions. 1) That Tabini found Wilson entirely too stuffy and uncommunicative, and therefore refused to have him as Paidhi; or 2) maybe it was traditional for a new aiji in Shejidan to start off with a new Paidhi, although that would seem not to be the brightest idea since both of them would be feeling each other out and adjusting to the job at the same time. (But then, it must be remembered that at the very, very beginning, the Paidhi was a very minor court functionary, which was why Bren was in his tiny courtyard apartment at the time of the assassination attempt on him that got the whole ball rolling. Together, Bren and Tabini took the Paidhi's office where it had never been before, and ultimately transcended the position and created the position of Lord of the Heavens instead.)

Joekc6nlx wrote:
Quote:
 
I for one have never thought of Cenedi having any relation to Banichi, although I'm sure it's possible. We don't know where Cenedi's home province lies, although we do know Banichi is southern.

When Cenedi is first introduced -- right after 'Sidi-ji first poisoned Bren -- Bren thinks that Cenedi looks just how Banichi will look in twenty or so years. Knowing the Guild's secrecy -- it wasn't until the first book of the second trilogy that we discover Jago is Banichi's daughter -- and making a really wild leap of imagination, I began wondering about that.

Joekc6nlx also wrote:
Quote:
 
...and what IS Algini's rank within the Guild, such that he is pretty high up, that he had no man'chi toward Bren, but rather now has it toward Tano?
Recall that Algini is the more reticent of the two.


Yes, I remember that, and I also remember that in addition to telling Bren that Algini now has manchi to Tano, Banichi made a point of saying that they were partners now. Did anyone but me get the slightest hint that when Banichi said they were partners, he was also hinting that they were lovers? Or am I jumping the gun when what Banichi meant was that Tano and Algini had merely formalized a working relationship which had previously been temporary and expedient?
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Busifer

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Chanor-ji wrote
Quote:
 
Did anyone but me get the slightest hint that when Banichi said they were partners, he was also hinting that they were lovers? Or am I jumping the gun when what Banichi meant was that Tano and Algini had merely formalized a working relationship which had previously been temporary and expedient?


Well, yes, I did the first time I read that passage, but on reread I grew uncertain... and I think previous discussions on the matter has landed at some kind of general conclusion based on the latter - that they have formalised a working relationship.
I'm still uncertain, though.

As to the matter with Wilson-paidhi I agree with magicdomo - my thoughts exactly.

My own thoughts right now is more about just HOW dysfunctional Bren really is. We had a Foreigner group read over at LT/Green Dragon earlier, and one member actually went crazy (a-hem, as crazy as this lot, I mean - nothing worse) and started to read all the books back to back. In the extended discussion that followed (still going on, in fact) this has lately floated to the surface. You know - is it normal to have lived with someone for over 10 years and still not have asked questions like 'are you happy with me', 'what do your father think of this weird relationship', 'who are your mother', 'do I fulfil your needs', 'do you want kids', etc. (most questions courtesy of TheMak over at the Dragon). How much of this is just behind the scenes - things going on without us as readers knowing it and how much of it actually is? Etcetera.

...
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cicely58
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Quoting Chanor-ji, above:
As for Wilson immediately returning to Mopheira after Valasi's assassination, I came to two different conclusions. 1) That Tabini found Wilson entirely too stuffy and uncommunicative, and therefore refused to have him as Paidhi; or 2) maybe it was traditional for a new aiji in Shejidan to start off with a new Paidhi, although that would seem not to be the brightest idea since both of them would be feeling each other out and adjusting to the job at the same time.
----------------------
My own supposition is that Tabini, on ascending to the aiji-ship, was simply ridding himself of someone of unreliable man'chi. Even though intellectually he knew that humans feel no such thing, instinctively he may have doubted that said man'chi (or rather, the human approximation; I see no chance that observant atevi, over all the years since the Landing, hadn't noticed that humans feel something for their associates) had reattached itself to him; especially with the suspicion on many minds (and perhaps Wilson's) that Tabini was party to Valisi's abrupt removal from office. Little to lose, then, in dismissing Wilson (potentially a threat, and a gift to his political enemies), and something to be gained in a new Paidhi who would be, man'chi-wise, a clean slate.
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griffinmoon
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cicily nadi:

My opinion also. Bren is noted as musing on what might have been the "polite" public reason for Wilson's retirement: cardiac issues & being unwilling to "housebreak" a young atevi ruler to wiser/slower counsel.
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pence

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It would be interesting to have Bren and Wilson meet now that Bren has been thoroughly Atevi-ized. Bren might have a different view if they are now both using the same non verbal patterns.
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Chanor-ji

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Nadi griffinmoon wrote:
Quote:
 
My opinion also. Bren is noted as musing on what might have been the "polite" public reason for Wilson's retirement: cardiac issues & being unwilling to "housebreak" a young atevi ruler to wiser/slower counsel.


I do not remember that. But then, I'm pushing 60 real hard, and whatever few pathetic brain cells I had left took off for vacation without me when I turned 50. Last night, though, because of the discussions here, I began rereading Foreigner, and will reread the entire series to date in order to jog what passes for my memory.
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leaf

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Just a thought - maybe the change in the paidhi's office was also due to timing - Tabini and Bren are of similar age, and - I think - Bren is said to have stood in for Wilson on occasion - so when Valasi died, perhaps Tabini had already met Bren & so encouraged Wilson to retire?
Apart that is from any fear that Wilson may have felt at the regime change.
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Xheralt
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Wilson-ji is, for all his walled-off atevi style, human. He may have felt that Tabini was a good and upstanding aiji who was doing a very good job and didn't deserve to be assassinated...and then, balked when he was required to turn around and work for the "clean-fingered" youth who, it is strongly suspected, arranged the death! Or if Tabini hadn't Filed, he certainly benefited from the deed, clear enough to make a human suspicious. Wilson-ji would also not have been as privy to the workings, dynamics, and motivations of Guilds such as the Assassins (or Messengers), and may not have understood -- or WANTED to understand -- why the Assassins agreed to perform the removal.

And what does an Assassin whose Lord had been Filed against do? Stand aside and let it happen, in deference to the aggregate will of his/her Guild? Or become adversarial to the rest of his Guild? One suspects the latter, given that most personal bodyguards have clear and direct man'chi to their primary. Paidhiin prior to Bren were sort of an exception, attracting no man'chi of their own, therefore being assigned guards of either the aiji's man'chi or of utterly neutral (i.e. direct to the Guild) man'chi.

Certain of us on this board suspect that Tano and Algini were of the latter type, before they declared themselves for Bren (that watershed moment when Bren was addressed as 'aiji-ma'!)

How far is a Filing pursued? Does one have to re-file if the first attempt fails, or does it remain "open season" until success?

Inquiring fans want to know! :lol:
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