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Foreigner Series; Favorite Moments (beware spoilers!)
Topic Started: Feb 5 2008, 08:21 PM (6,198 Views)
Aja Jin
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number one good, A ?
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been traveling, read "Timescape" by Greg Benford, "Ring" by Stephen Baxter, and "Can-Am Challenger" by Peter Bryant (racing)

meh, airlines are not very nice anymore :knife:
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Resa
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Bansu,Mar 24 2008
04:37 PM
Emotional cross pollination is another fun thing to see happening. The Atevi around Bren are beginning to be able to feel at a version of some human emotions- they sincerely do 'like' Bren and not just for his wholesome good taste. Isn't it also possible that Bren is feeling something like 'manchi' for Tabini as he throws himself between the Aiji and a bullet? Something interesting is developing as these diverse people experiment with methods for future humans and atevi to interact safely.

Indeed, Nadi! Indeed!

Oh, it's going to be a long wait for book 10!
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pence

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This impression that the Atevi 'feel' something for Bren is what caused the War of the Landing in the first place.
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Sandor

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Bansu,Mar 24 2008
12:37 PM
<snip>
Emotional cross pollination is another fun thing to see happening. The Atevi around Bren are beginning to be able to feel at a version of some human emotions- they sincerely do 'like' Bren and not just for his wholesome good taste. Isn't it also possible that Bren is feeling something like 'manchi' for Tabini as he throws himself between the Aiji and a bullet? Something interesting is developing as these diverse people experiment with methods for future humans and atevi to interact safely.
<snip>

I've thought a little bit about this, but I think we get a better glimpse from Cajeiri's POV in the most recent book. Cajeiri muses on some of the differences between "builders" and "destroyers" and concludes that his father and Bren are both "builders". He then starts thinking in more depth on Bren's role.

To pull this back into my own words, since I don't have any source material with me in NY, Bren is a builder, but not just a builder, he is a bridge. He is able to do what the original humans and atevi could not do in bridging across associations: he understands what is going on and serves to bolster all the participants fortunes while providing the rationale for his own actions that satisfy the atevi instincts.

The loyalty and feellings of Bren's staff toward him is not at all the human variety. Loyalty translates across species boundaries as far as man'chi does, but the feelings have more to do with respect (which does exist in atevi, even if it doesn't bound actions that are required by man'chi) and with the natural instinctive desire of the atevi to strengthen and appreciate that which strengthens man'chi. Bren does that - he builds, not just roads and planes and spaceships, but he smoothes ruffles in man'chi. So, most atevi tend to feel more comfortable around him and so react positively to his presence.

OK, I'm sleep deprived, so I'll stop. Boy, I live near a hospital back in VA, but we don't have near the number of ambulances going by as what I'm hearing every five minutes on 42nd street :)

- Sandor
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agricola
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That was a very thoughtful post, Sandor. I think you are right - and I think that BREN is starting to 'feel' a bit toward ATEVI emotions - recall how 'glad' he was to see Tabini show up? Relief/comfort/closeness - all those atevi'ish manchi'ish attitudes.

I very much liked the 'Cajeiri POV' parts, especially when he thought about Bren in atevi terms. That kid is terrifyingly smart. If he were my kid, I'd be seriously worried about finding him some formidable mentors - besides Ilisidi, who is clearly aging, Cajeiri needs somebody physically fast. REALLY fast. Extremely really fast. With a good imagination and serious paranoia. Several of them. They could go in SHIFTS.
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Felicitous Sk8er
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Quote:
 
That kid is terrifyingly smart.


Yes. Look who his "mother" is! :cherryh: :atwink

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Chanor-ji

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Quote:
 
I very much liked the 'Cajeiri POV' parts, especially when he thought about Bren in atevi terms. That kid is terrifyingly smart. If he were my kid, I'd be seriously worried about finding him some formidable mentors - besides Ilisidi, who is clearly aging, Cajeiri needs somebody physically fast. REALLY fast. Extremely really fast. With a good imagination and serious paranoia. Several of them. They could go in SHIFTS.


I suspect that simply by the fact of his having lived aboard Phoenix cheek-to-jowl with Cenedi, Jago, Banichi and the Dowager's "young men", Cajeiri is much more involved with the Assassins Guild than most atevi youngsters of his class and who are not members of a Guildsman's immediate family. By the same token, I suspect the Guild -- through Cenedi, Banichi, Jago, etc. -- is much more involved with Cajeiri than it would be with another other youngster -- even an aiji major-in-training.

It would not surprise me in the least if Bren's staff and the Dowager's staff continued to play a more than normal part in Cajeiri's upbringing -- especially since they were cooped up with him for two years and are fully aware of what havoc he can wreak in a blink of the eye. Besides, keeping a foot on Cajeiri is valuable practice for both staffs. Keeps them on their toes. :grin

(Can you imagine the shock this kid is going to be to atevi society when he hits his full stride? He speaks Mospheiran like a native, has very close human associates, has been trained in politics by both Ilisidi and Tabini and has learned Ghu only knows what from highly placed members of the Guild. I don't think atevi society will ever recover! :rofl: )
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Lemn

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I think the part that solidifies everything for me is when the most reticent of Bren's household, Algini, calls Bren 'aiji-ma'. I knew at that point that Bren is not human really anymore but a human/atevi hybrid that commands the manchi as any other atevi aiji does. It was easy to see that in the next book Algini would get rid of his manchi towards the guild and firmly place it with Bren.

The great part is that Bren feels he does not deserve this honor...and feels it is an honor. I think Bren, possibly without knowing it, understands that while manchi does not flow down, but up, one has to have his peoples best interests at heart. His people know this and it reinforces their manchi towards him. They WILL all protect him at all costs...down to the least of his staff. Actually now that I think about it Bren does have a sort of manchi that flows downhill. His relationship is unlike anything else the atevi have seen. Reciprocal manchi I guess.

I like everything about Cajeiri as he is the human-atevi-kyo bridge. :cherryh: seems to be setting up the partnership of Bren and Jeri for the future. Tabini-aiji will hold onto the aijiinate for quite some time before Jeri will have to settle back onto the earth for his ruling time. I believe with Sidi-ji getting a bit to old for travel Jeri will be taking up more of the role with Bren as the earthly powers to negotiate with as Tabini-aiji's representatives. Not to mention I really love all the trouble Jeri gets into but the great heart and promise he shows.

I think atevi and human could learn something from Jeri. Fosterage seems to be a good idea. A mixing of cultures slowly until there is a unified one. Humans are not getting back to their earth for sure. It would be nice if human and atevi become able to merge... Children for Jago and Bren would be cool to start that on the way. Unlikely though from hints in the book that such things would be impossible. This is said in Bren's thoughts in one book, however, Bren has had the wrong ideas more than once. :atwink

Some of the other good parts that I think are cool is when Jago is possessive towards Bren and jealous about Barb. Having that dangerously competant ateva woman fiercely attached to you would be very comforting if you ask me.
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agricola
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Isn't it terrific how all these characters - these PEOPLE - are ALIVE outside the covers of a book? They are so real - I find myself wanting to be able to ask Bren how the kids - his niece and nephew I daresay - are doing - they must be college age by now. Of course, Bren's brother and Jill had to have gotten married REALLY young: in the first book, Bren was about 26 in local years (apparently about 25 Terran, wouldn't it be?) and he was the OLDER brother - but the kids were 'walking to school' already, so they had to be 6 or 8 - which would have Toby and Jill getting married right out of high school....

You think either of them is following Uncle Bren into the 'foreign service'?

And isn't this a ridiculous sort of discussion to have, considering that those kids never made more than totally peripheral 'appearances' (over the PHONE, and once they were on the beach playing, weren't they? enjoying a birthday party - and I had SUCH pictures in my head of Bujavid security monitoring a human child's birthday party....) i!?!

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agricola
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Speaking of 'children' in Bren and Jago's life - I don't think - I REALLY don't think - speculation about cross -species hybrids is going to happen at ALL. However - Cajeiri definitely fills a 'child' spot in Bren's case - and I have frequently entertained myself with the idea that through some unspecified disaster, Bren becomes the legal guardian of some infant relative or two, of pre-pubescent age, who end up on his doorstep in Shejidan....

:baji
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Aelith
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Is there not the possibility that Jago could contract a "marriage" to get an atvei child and heir?
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agricola
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It would be the custom, and Bren said he wouldn't mind it at all, but both Jago and Banichi said the Bujavid was no place to raise children - I suppose if they ever RETIRE - which doesn't look too likely!
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Resa
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agricola,Apr 15 2008
01:42 AM
Isn't it terrific how all these characters - these PEOPLE - are ALIVE outside the covers of a book? They are so real - I find myself wanting to be able to ask Bren how the kids - his niece and nephew I daresay - are doing - they must be college age by now. Of course, Bren's brother and Jill had to have gotten married REALLY young: in the first book, Bren was about 26 in local years (apparently about 25 Terran, wouldn't it be?) and he was the OLDER brother - but the kids were 'walking to school' already, so they had to be 6 or 8 - which would have Toby and Jill getting married right out of high school....

You think either of them is following Uncle Bren into the 'foreign service'?

And isn't this a ridiculous sort of discussion to have, considering that those kids never made more than totally peripheral 'appearances' (over the PHONE, and once they were on the beach playing, weren't they? enjoying a birthday party - and I had SUCH pictures in my head of Bujavid security monitoring a human child's birthday party....) i!?!

This is why I draw so very many pictures. It's my way of inserting them a bit further into my world, if you will. I want to see them, so I draw them.

So, yes, Nadi. One so very much understands what you just said.
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Chanor-ji

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Aelith,Apr 14 2008
10:48 PM
Is there not the possibility that Jago could contract a "marriage" to get an atvei child and heir?

I've wondered that myself. But I don't think Jago would like being constrained from her body guard duties to Bren because of pregnancy. I would be more inclined to think that Jago would adopt a baby from her natal association, then laugh herself silly while watching Bren try to deal with an infant atevi. She so does enjoy it when Bren stumbles as he most earnestly tries to navigate the cultural minefield of the atevi-human interface.

Quote:
 
I knew at that point that Bren is not human really anymore but a human/atevi hybrid that commands the manchi as any other atevi aiji does


When I took German in high school, one of my teachers said that true fluency comes when you don't need to "translate" words in your mind, but are able to think in German while conversing in German.

Ever since Bren stopped being an employee of the Mospheiran state department and became an official of Tabini's court, I have wondered if he has started thinking and dreaming in ragi. There have been a couple of mentions of how relaxing he finds a properly kabiu room to be. Over the course of the series, he seems to become much quicker at parsing unspoken as well as spoken numbers. He doesn't seem to need to think about it as hard as he did in the first trilogy.

Quote:
 
I think Bren, possibly without knowing it, understands that while manchi does not flow down, but up, one has to have his peoples best interests at heart. His people know this and it reinforces their manchi towards him. They WILL all protect him at all costs...down to the least of his staff. Actually now that I think about it Bren does have a sort of manchi that flows downhill. His relationship is unlike anything else the atevi have seen. Reciprocal manchi I guess.


I agree 100%. And I think his staff has been slowly adjusting to his version of manchi -- at least on an intellectual level, if not always on an instinctual level. When the smoke clears, Jago and Banichi will usually disect the paidhi's weird behavior and make an effort to make it a part of their understanding -- if, for no other reason than to anticipate future weirdness of the same sort that will require operational preplanning. :grin
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Gent
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In re-reading the series, I have come across another favorite moment:

Captain Sabin disappears into the second station. It turns out that she gets bogged down in a dangerous fight between her guard and station forces as she tries to take control of the fuel dispensing area.

Less than a day after she left the ship, she has nearly succeeded in reaching her goal. Suddenly, her opposition is fighting on a second front and is quickly defeated.

By Bren and the Atevi. lol.

Bren quickly reports that they rescued an alien hostage, destroyed the archive, displaced Braddock, repelled a boarding party, have people inside and outside disarming the explosives on the fuel, and have begun loading passengers.

They did all that in the time it took Sabin to go from A to B, and they still got to "B" ahead of her.

GREAT moment in the series, IMO.
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