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| So, I Finally Finished Deliverer | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 27 2007, 10:49 PM (3,263 Views) | |
| agricola | Apr 19 2008, 04:19 AM Post #91 |
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ilisidi was already a high up aristocrat and has a power base in the east. She married a former aiji, which gave her a power base - or a potential one - in the west. She is a consummate politician and a powerful personality (we all agree there, right?) She was and is an 'aiji' of her own holdings in the east. She politicked for the position of aiji of the entire western association, and didn't get enough 'votes'. Remember it is the LOWER house that elects the aiji - not the 'house of lords'. Apparently the commons wanted a more 'progressive' minded aiji, and went with Tabini. But they are 'the same family' more or less. I think heredity plays a part in 'aiji selection', although not an absolute determinant. |
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| agricola | Apr 20 2008, 05:23 PM Post #92 |
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Inheritor chapter 1 'Tabini-aiji, whose position was both elective and to some meaningful degree hereditary,' also in Invader, Banichi and Jago stress to Bren that all the Ragi aijis that ever were came from the same few (five) families from the Padi Valley area (around Taiben), but Taiben's line (through his father through Ilisidi) was the only line with connections outside the Padi Valley area - followed by some speculations on why his favor landed on Damiri of the Ataseigi, a rival Padi Valley line, with consideration going toward Damiri deciding that her best route to the aiji-ship, so to speak, was through the bedroom. Cajeiri, then, unites two major Padi Valley lines, as well as pulling in Ilisidi's considerable powers in the east. Cool kid. |
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| magicdomino | Apr 20 2008, 06:08 PM Post #93 |
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If atevi medical history is anything like human history, there may have once been a high death rate among children. At the least, one would need "an heir and a spare", plus perhaps a third for felicity. Throw in adult deaths due to assassination and reckless accident, and the occasional child who just isn't suited for aiji, and a plethora of talented children might be welcome. On the other hand, siblings raise the possibility of factions, as seen in old European royalty. It's an interesting dilemma. Also, if Damiri is Tatiseigi's heir, then who will inherit after her? I believe some sisters were mentioned. |
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| Leela-ji | Apr 21 2008, 05:03 AM Post #94 |
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Yes, Damiri has at least... two sisters, I think. Right now you've just made me wonder, what would happen if Damiri herself claimed uncle Tati's place after his death? Everyone thinks Cajeiri will hold that position but what if mommy wants it harder? She is obviously not without resources and so far we don't know if her attachment to Tabini is purely "romantic", if that word can be used with atevi, perhaps her ambition runs deeper than sharing Tabini's unnumbered problems. Even in human history faithful, quiet consorts can sometimes show a very different face when they are in a position to take power. It's also curious that she's produced only one child when everything tells she's perfectly capable of producing more, if only to make sure at least one will survive to rule. Maybe she doesn't want to? Less competition? She produced Cajeiri only to secure her access to Tabini and her future ambitions? Atevi aren't sentimental when it comes to eliminating obstacles, as long as they are not within their man'chi. And Cajeiri is not within -her- man'chi. He is not far -if- Damiri has man'chi to Tabini but he is not within mommy's man'chi. |
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| Chanor-ji | Apr 21 2008, 05:19 PM Post #95 |
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It was not always a case of primogeniture in Europe. For a period of time -- 200 AD -- 400 AD? -- the Roman Empire was divided between Eastern Rome with its capitol in Constantinople and Western Rome with its capitol in Rome. There was a Western Emperor and an Eastern Emperor. And it was customary for each Emperor to select his own heir by naming a Caesar, who was a step or so lower on the pecking order than the Emperor himself. Frequently, a Caesar was the blood son of an Emperor, but it was not unknown for an Emperor to select a non-blood relative. In the early 1100s, Henry II of England crowned his oldest son King of England in order to ensure a peaceful transition in England. But Henry gave the Aquitane to Richard the Lionheart and Brittany to Geoffrey. (For Henry's youngest, there was no other land which was why he was frequently referred to as John Lackland.) It sounded like a good idea at the time, but Henry II spent the rest of his reign trying to keep his sons from overthrowing him in order to get true power. After Henry's time, primogeniture became more and more the norm until a century or so later, primogeniture was the rule. Reading through the Canon, I have always sensed what this human might call affection between Tabini and Damiri, even in Invader. "Heir! Heir! Heir! Maybe tonight!" To me, that exchange reads as an exchange between two people comfortable enough with each other to be on a bickering basis. And Damiri stuck with Tabini through his entire exile, a time during which if her man'chi was based solely on what benefitted her the most, she might have been expected to distance herself from him. And at the end of Pretender, I see her and Tabini as very emotionally attached to each other. |
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| Busifer | Apr 21 2008, 07:00 PM Post #96 |
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Slightly off-topic, but because academic discussion made by americans tend to only include UK and France (and greeks and romans, if the Ancients are under scrutiny) I want to add that in certain times royalty can also be imported - the present swedish monarch stems from one of the marshals of Napoleon Bonaparte; one Jean Baptiste Bernadotte. The previous king died without a living legitimate heir, and the appointed one died (accident). Napoleon was very popular here, for some reason, and the gentry wanted one of his marshals to be the next king. Others wanted otherwise, but when the Bernadotte family paid off the debts the swedish crown had to France he became the only choice. He ruled Sweden under the name Karl XIV Johan. This was very uncontroversial, and I gather this was the custom in many a small nation when the present royal family lacked natural (bloodline) choices. |
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| agricola | Apr 22 2008, 01:29 AM Post #97 |
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Interesting - I see Damiri as considering Tabini as both attractive personally and a person with very good ideas, and a person she considers 'the best' aiji, and one with wide support GENERALLY - emotional? Wasn't the Kadigidi jockeying for the Atageini heirship to a degree? Direiso's father was Tatiseigi's brother (died of 'bad berries') and Damiri's mother was his sister (that's three children in that family, at least). Direiso's son Murini had that connection then, to the Atageini. Napoleon put his siblings into thrones all over Europe, granted. And Queen Victoria sent hers into royal weddings similarly. Is there a 'royal' family in all Europe that ISN'T related to Charles? |
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| pence | Apr 22 2008, 01:34 AM Post #98 |
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I have the impression that the "lower" ajis also have no feeling of manchi. At their level of dominance, the alliances are pure politics. |
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| griffinmoon | Apr 22 2008, 04:44 AM Post #99 |
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Ranger
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See, now I would have thought just the opposite of pence nadi: the lower the aij the less political things would be. The higher an aiji position in question, the more political: such as Tabini is. He also may be extremely lucky in that he can also prefer Damiri personally as well as the politics. |
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| agricola | Apr 22 2008, 05:00 AM Post #100 |
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There have to be 'levels' of relative lack of man'chi - or else how could society work? Lord Geigi has plenty of manchi heading to him, and presumably feels it towards his 'superiors'. A person can be a LITTLE aiji, I should think, and still have that feeling toward those bigger lords, who I suppose 'feel' a bit less - until you get to the highest lords of all - the ones vying for THE Aiji of the entire Association - and that one (or perhaps those FEW) don't have that 'feeling' - or if they do, it is so attenuated and vanishingly small, that it doesn't have any effect. I have a hard time seeing 'having man'chi' as an all or nothing proposition. I can understand it better as a continuum of obligation or something like that. Strong in many, weaker in others, weakest of all (or missing) in the very few. After all, it isn't totally static - an individual must have some innate man'chi towards, likely, parents - and then transfers it to other persons at various times throughout their lives and for various reasons. Bren speculates that Cosadi (Saigimi's daughter) might be 'confused' as to where her man'chi lies, and that marriages or alliances might involve some new attachments involving man'chi. When Bren talks to Tano and Algini about what an ateva would feel/do upon hearing of the death of a parent (Book 3 when Jase has reported that his father died - (which was a lie)) - they say one of the things they would do is return to the household and 'confirm' man'chi, and 'put away' the deceased person's man'chi - and Bren has the idea also that man'chi is not entirely involuntary, but may in some cases be changed or influenced by, basically, logical or intellectual choices and decisions. |
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| Xheralt | Apr 23 2008, 04:43 AM Post #101 |
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Being an aiji has TWO components, only one of which is "the ability to attract man'chi while offering none (or very little)"! The other is "the ability to lead intelligently." A "sigaiji" has the ability/inclination to lead, but not the attractiveness to others. Perhaps lesser aijiin have the ability to attract persons into their service, but lack the talent/ability/inclination to lead themselves, and thus follow someone else with stronger leadership skills/better ideas/more charisma? Or someone who covets/needs the numbers/resources of the lesser lordling's followers, and sets out to associate with the lesser? I don't know that Geigi feels or shows man'chi to Illisidi, but he's absolutely associated. Man'chi is emotional, association is pragmatic and political, based on commonality of goals, or other considerations. ("Throw your strength behind me and I'll grant you control of the Dur ferry operations") And BOTH apply in the relationships lords have with each other. |
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| agricola | Apr 25 2008, 12:39 PM Post #102 |
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Oh VERY good xheralt! Yes, sometimes I forget to factor in 'association' in addition to man'chi. I suppose on the idea that association WITHOUT man'chi 'within' it wouldn't work at all. Bren does mention at one point, (to himself) that people can belong to more than one association - even some that are ENEMIES, and can 'hold varying levels of man'chi' to different associations. That seems to be the plot motivation of the machimi: which man'chi is 'tops'? Which is partly emotional, certainly, but possibly intellectual/political choice has some degree of influence - but man'chi is AT BASE emotional - so it would likely be very difficult for an ateva to 'associate' with a person or an idea or group or whatever, without a corresponding level of emotional attachment. |
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