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So, I Finally Finished Deliverer
Topic Started: Nov 27 2007, 10:49 PM (3,266 Views)
Reading_fox

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hmm not how I remember/understood it.

Algini was appointed directly by the Guildmaster to keep and eye on the pahdi as he rose in prominence - and I think initially to be an easy way of removing him if required :atwink

The old Guildmaster was murdered by the bad guys, and the absense of a large number of 'good' Guild with Bren et al, allowed a sycophant to be installed. Shame he wan't a match for Algini and Banichi!

Who the current Guildmaster is ? ... but not Algini I think. He's retired his special commission of keeping an eye on Bren, in order to serve more directly
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Leela-ji
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Hmmm Algini is a huge question mark, he is at once a very troubled fellow -and- very, very good at what he does :shoot: Once I suspected he was actually "The" Guildmaster *gasp*, kept safe up in the station and all but now I'm not sure. Now it would seem that he -had- man'chi to the late Guildmaster and was freed after his/her demise, which allowed him to "get closer" to Tano... which is very strange because man'chi flows only up, which would mean Tano is, at least, some sort of lesser aiji -or- that it's a lovers' thing. That pair, one always suspected :atwink
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Eskaybe

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hrhspence,Mar 7 2008
04:55 PM

Me too, I was a bit dissapointed that the 'bots weren't discussed earlier.  I felt that they were sprung on me.  But, now that we know about them, they should prove interesting.

I caught a quick reference to the parachuted robots during my recent reread of Destroyer (hardback edition, page 125). I only noticed it this time because this thread had caught my attention earlier.

When Yolanda is updating Bren on the current situation at the hotel, she mentions claims of the station sending down capsules via parachute but then says its a lie which was only spread to get the locals searching the countryside for Tabini.

However, I still feel that the robots are more of a recent plot addition building on what was, when originally written, just an ordinary line with no greater purpose. I cannot see the station sending anything down to the planet without Tano and Algini knowing about it in great detail and I can't see any atevi security, much less Bren's security, carrying electronic equipment of untested origin with them on a critical mission when it could compromise their success.

Part of this problem may be because we only know what Bren knows but, I think the whole electronics from above issue needs more background to avoid the deux ex machina debate. I'm suspending further judgement until the next book when Ms. Cherryh will certainly have to discuss the background of this in more detail ... I can't wait!

To open other ideas, I would love to see Bren suggest to Tabini that one of the best ways to deal with Cajeri is to foster Cajeri to Tabini himself. Could you just see Cajeri trying to learn from his father and driving him absolutely crazy in the process while Ilsidi, Tatiseigi and security snicker from the sidelines!

I have always seen Cajeri as a mirror image of Tabini at that age and wonder if the atevi have the phrase "the curse works"? I've always felt that Ilsidi and Tabini have a closer "relationship" than other atevi suspect and wonder if it is because Ilsidi may have fostered Tabini when he was a child. Not that atevi would feel a familial bonding or affection, but because they place great reliability in their knowledge of the other and shared experiences.

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agricola
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I didn't get the idea that the old Guildmaster died - just that an attempt had been made, to the point where he/she had to go into safe hiding temporarily. I thought Algini et al was still acting on the orders of the original Guildmaster - but that's just my impression! I got the impression that the 'new' Guildmaster had TRIED to kill the previous one, had come really REALLY close - was in fact acting AS IF the attempt had succeeded, but wasn't really truly totally certain....

But maybe I was reading too much into it.

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Lemn

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I love making interesting conjectures.

Ok here is a very oddball and left field conjecture. The guild master was Tabini.

You will note that the Guild had problems at the same time Tabini disappeared and that Murini usurped. The new guildmaster was a Southern implant fostered by Murini and as such only came into power after Tabini was incommunicado. All the Guild attacking Tabini had southern man'chi.

If you notice Tano and Algini were assigned to Bren by Tabini. Tabini gave Bren a weapon. Tabini also knows so much more than one would surely expect from just an aiji. Look at the remarkable number of Guild that surrounds Tabini. Clearly the majority of the guild favors him. One wonders why? Tabini shows up in the last book in Guild leathers and perhaps this is not new clothing for him. We do know so little of Tabini's upbringing...

Think about this... Tabini's father was assassinated. Who better to be able to sanction such a File of Intent other than the Guildmaster himself.

Ask yourself who is the *new* Guildmaster for sure. The old Guildmaster was, and possibly still is, Tabini-aiji.
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Surtac
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A very interesting conjecture, Lemn. This requires some seriously deep pondering. :hmmm:

:invert
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BetYeager
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Lemn,Apr 14 2008
04:28 PM
I love making interesting conjectures.

Ok here is a very oddball and left field conjecture.  The guild master was Tabini.

You will note that the Guild had problems at the same time Tabini disappeared and that Murini usurped.  The new guildmaster was a Southern implant fostered by Murini and as such only came into power after Tabini was incommunicado.  All the Guild attacking Tabini had southern man'chi.

If you notice Tano and Algini were assigned to Bren by Tabini.  Tabini gave Bren a weapon.  Tabini also knows so much more than one would surely expect from just an aiji.  Look at the remarkable number of Guild that surrounds Tabini.  Clearly the majority of the guild favors him.  One wonders why?  Tabini shows up in the last book in Guild leathers and perhaps this is not new clothing for him.  We do know so little of Tabini's upbringing...

Think about this...  Tabini's father was assassinated.  Who better to be able to sanction such a File of Intent other than the Guildmaster himself.

Ask yourself who is the *new* Guildmaster for sure.  The old Guildmaster was, and possibly still is, Tabini-aiji.

Hmmmm, oddball and left field conjecture for sure. I don't think I can support it.

Everything fell apart when Tabini went incommunicado. Of course everything fell apart. It doesn't mean he was the Guildmaster. Support for Tabini was wavering, there was a strong opposition party flanning the flames of revolt, suddenly the leader disappears and manchi starts shifting all over the place... When Tabini disappeared it must have seemed like the only reasonable attempt to orchestrate a coup. Watch your mecheita. The second in line is constantly testing the strength of the first. The lead goes down, the next few trample everyone ahead of them to try to get in front.

When would Tabini have time to become both Guildmaster and Aiji? One can hardly comprehend the work that goes into becoming--and remaining--Aiji of the Western Association. I doubt one person would be able to do both. Remember, Tabini is an extraordinarily accessible Aiji, available to commoners all day long. When would he have time to do whatever it takes to be an assassin, let alone Guild leader? I imagine the Guildmaster to be a venerable old Master who is no longer at a physical peak, but has reached an age of wisdom and understanding. Tabini was a young man at the start of Foreigner.

Tano and Algini were assigned to Bren by Tabini. So were Jago and Banichi. Tatiseigi assigns members of his household to Bren as well. (and they turn out to be guild, don't they?) That seems to be what one does as aiji of one's household when one is responsible for the health and safety of one's guest. Even when one's guest is most assuredly a barbarian with no sense of kabiu. Even when one is primarily concerned with protecting the porcelain from said guest. Even when one is not such an ally of the guest or the guest's sponsor, one is still able to reassign staff to the guest.

You are going to have to work a whole lot harder to convince me of this theory.
Have some safe :t and some :pizza: while we work this out!
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Busifer

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Do we really know Tabini assigned Tano/Algini to Bren? What I remember is Banichi vouching for them, nothing else. Bren, at least, seems to think at least Algini was assigned to him by the late? Guildmaster, and in Deliverer Algini says "we now have no other man'chi" when he returns from a Guild meeting, insinuating he and Tano shared owed man'chi to the same aiji, originally. Which would be Guild, not Tabini.
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agricola
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I can't see Tabini as Guildmaster. Too much time commitment is the least of it. Very much is made of the balances of atevi society - the Guild MUST stand as an 'independent power' over against the aiji or it wouldn't work. Tabini has petitioned the Guild for action in the past. That speculation would be like saying that say, Charlemagne was also secretly the Pope in his spare time. Can't see that happening.

I don't think we've seen the Guildmaster. I think what happened at the final guild meeting when Algini came back 'released', is that the original Guildmaster was either actually proven deceased, or else retired - and that (whichever) is what gave Algini his release from other obligations. The Guild elected somebody new (I have speculations but nothing solid) and Algini was either allowed or decided not to direct his man'chi to the new guy.

How about Cenedi as the new Guildmaster? Although I honestly think he's too tightly connected to Ilisidi. The Guild just had a little taste of being used for partisan political ends. They may 'support' Tabini-aiji, but I don't think they want partisan leaders for themselves except towards national stability.

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agricola
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After posting that last night, I had a total brainstorm! The old Guildmaster was EIDI!!!

And he IS deceased, remember? I bet Tabini might have THOUGHT Eidi was Guildmaster but maybe couldn't be sure, and certainly couldn't ASK - but Eidi was killed when the assassination attempt was made on Tabini - who wants to guess it was a double pronged attack, both at Tabini AND at Eidi - and succeeded only partially!


ooh I am SO ready to think I'm right!

So Algini - holding man'chi DIRECTLY to the Guildmaster - was merely 'completing' an assignment (doing what Eidi would have wanted) before being 'released' by the death of the Guildmaster! Oh it all just FITS!

NEW Guildmaster??? Banichi? He is certainly 'high' in the Guild - I don't think the new guildmaster could be any of the new security around Tabini. It could be someone we haven't seen at all, of course.

(sneaky thought - maybe it's SAIDIN....)

Has to be someone based in Shejidan, though.



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Busifer

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Quote:
 
The old Guildmaster was EIDI!!!

Yes, that sounds reasonable enough? But wouldn't Banichi et al have known he was the Guildmaster, and they knew Eidi was killed in the attempt and still Algini or Jago (can't remember who) tells Bren that the old Guildmaster is rumoured to be dead?
A lie is, of course, always a possibility...
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agricola
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NOT a lie - typical atevi - the old Guildmaster IS 'rumored to be dead'. They may very well know that he IS dead, but decline to confirm it for outsiders to the guild.

Oh sneaky. I love it.
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Felicitous Sk8er
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Quote:
 
Oh sneaky. I love it.


Which is why I kept expecting Deanna Hanks to reappear, alive, way back when, with an explanation of "mistaken identity" or "Guild action". I couldn't trust anything, including her purported death! :atwink
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Busifer

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Quote:
 
NOT a lie - typical atevi - the old Guildmaster IS 'rumored to be dead'. They may very well know that he IS dead, but decline to confirm it for outsiders to the guild.


Yes, I wrote a paragraph like that but then voted to edit it out because I have issues with Bren's ability to accept that his most trusted staff lies to him - I am forever too human :atwink
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Chanor-ji

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No, I can't accept either Tabini, Eidi, Banichi or Cenedi as Guildmaster. It just never read that way to me.

In my copy of Destroyer (I read the Sacred Texts as ARCs which are subject to change), I believe Lord Geigi informs Bren and the Dowager that the Guildmaster had been killed and partly for that reason the Guild itself was in a state of chaos that kept it from acting either for or against Tabini. Then in Pretender, Bren's staff tells him that the Guildmaster is either dead or in hiding. Near the end of the book, apparently everything is settled within the Guild, which has come out on the side of Tabini.

BetYeager wrote:
Quote:
 
I imagine the Guildmaster to be a venerable old Master who is no longer at a physical peak, but has reached an age of wisdom and understanding.


I agree. I also think it would not be to the Guild's advantage to have the Guild Master out on assignment. If a crisis occurs, the Guildmaster should be readily availlable to handle things. He (or she) probably resides in Shejidan or close by in the guise of a doddering old retiree who goes out a lot. Like Agricola, I think the Guildmaster is a character we haven't seen. And I definitely remember reading something about not even Tabini knowing who the Guildmaster is.

As for Algini: I agree with the people who speculate that Algini had been assigned a specific task by whoever was Guildmaster in the earlier books, and held manchi to that Guildmaster. Algini's obvious contentment at being finished with that duty and that manchi at the end of Pretender suggested to me that he was very pleased to have no special task outside of being an ordinary member of the Padhi's staff. (If you can call being a member of the Paidhi's staff "ordinary".) That alone tells me that Algini isn't the Guildmaster.

But I'll just wait impatiently for the next trilogy to unfold and see what new deviltry the Great One :cherryh: has cooked up to torture us with. :grin
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