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| So, I Finally Finished Deliverer | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 27 2007, 10:49 PM (3,269 Views) | |
| hrhspence | Nov 29 2007, 04:17 AM Post #16 |
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Hani Assassin
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Perhaps the invention of Chanu-ma would be the masculine form of the word. And I wouldn't mind being Chanu to Erin and Marcus, not at all. Sk8er-ji? Would you ask Sidjei-Daja if that is acceptable to her? (about Mani and Chanu being the generic names for a pair of grandparents?) |
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| Arianne_Luinithil | Nov 29 2007, 08:28 AM Post #17 |
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Bu-javid tekikin
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Wouldn't the suggested terms be for great-grandparents though? After all Cajeiri is Ilisidi's great-grandson. I'd think that atevi, as concerned with tradition and example (kabiu) as they are, and anxious to always be respectful, with their convoluted etiquette structures to ensure no one gets unduly offended by mistake, would have specific words for familial elders of different generations and degrees, much as in Chinese (with which I am familiar, being Chinese) and Japanese; atevi culture seems rather similiar to Japanese culture in some respects. |
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| hrhspence | Nov 29 2007, 04:20 PM Post #18 |
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Hani Assassin
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Good point, though I got the impression that Ilsidi was not entirely happy with being called Mani-ma by her G'grandson as she was called that by others in the area. It felt more generic to me than the specific honorific required in formal society. |
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| Arianne_Luinithil | Nov 30 2007, 10:21 AM Post #19 |
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Bu-javid tekikin
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One thought that it wasn't so much unhappy at being called Grandmother, and said term being rather informal-- I think 'Sidi-ji thinks that Cajeiri wasn't being serious or sober enough--he's seeing her as his great-grandmother, and addresses her as such, but doesn't really think of her as a lord whom he is supposed to obey, his 'temporary' aiji, as she is his guardian, and that he was behaving in a manner inappropriate to etiquette in the situation. |
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| shlinas | Dec 1 2007, 01:21 AM Post #20 |
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Queen of All Things Cute
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Am I completely hallucinating the memory of Tabini once calling Ilisidi mani though? Not Mani-ma, obviously, but just Mani. |
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| El Ronin | Dec 12 2007, 12:34 AM Post #21 |
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Guild Linguist
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I would have to agree with Nand Arianne. Atevi language is so shaded toward nuance, that I could not imagine their being a term for a relative. As I understand it, Mani-ma was an all purpose term that Cajeiri used in regards to Ilisidi. In Japanese, the structure is such that the word is different referring to one's own relations as opposed to someone elses. In modern Japanese it is more relaxed, but formal Japanese is strict. In/Out of one's group determines the use of the word, or if you are talking TO the person, one should add an honorific. Could this be similar in Atevi language in regards to man'chi and those inside or outside one's association? |
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| hrhspence | Dec 12 2007, 12:46 AM Post #22 |
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Hani Assassin
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I have often thought so. When I fill out the Ragi language I will include something similar to that. When I was talking with Ms Cherry in Shejicon I, I proposed a different base system for aijiin, (3) and a base 5 for professionals and a base 7 for servants. Her response was a very introspective look and "Interesting!" I took that as a go a head. |
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| Aja Jin | Dec 12 2007, 01:56 AM Post #23 |
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number one good, A ?
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I have often thought of Atevi as very Japanese.... |
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| El Ronin | Dec 12 2007, 05:28 AM Post #24 |
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Guild Linguist
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Me too. Here is an example of what I was speaking of: chichi = speaking of my father to outsider chichi-ue = speaking of my father (upper class or nobility) to outsider (can be used when speaking TO, but only if nobility and in the presence of others such as a holding court when there is none higher than than the father) otou-san = speaking to my father. speaking of my father to outsider (possible), but always insider. Also a wife can address her husband using this. otou-sama = speaking to my father (upper class or nobility) 'tou-chan = daddy. Usually used by females or young boys to father. Also a father may refer to himself in the third person using any otou ('tou) form with the exception of sama since adding sama to a name or title is giving honor. One does not assume honor. And an exception of the -ue form. When speaking to a child of the head of a noble house and referring to their father, it is permissible to use chichi-ue when relaying a message, though most might use their last name and add -sama. That's just for father. It can get terribly convoluted. Also there is talking up and talking down and using the wrong form can sometimes be a calculated insult the equivalent that would be "yo' mama." |
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| shlinas | Dec 12 2007, 08:51 PM Post #25 |
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Queen of All Things Cute
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Except that Arianne's speculation was whether the word "mani" specified the number of generations the individual was removed from one's self. Instead of a general "granny" it was a specific "great-grandmother." Therefore only Cajeiri could call Ilisidi "mani" since he is her only great-grandchild. However, I do think I remember Tabini once calling Ilisidi "mani" which would mean that it wasn't. It makes sense, however, that such numbers would be inherent in atevi language, since so many other numbers are. And since 3 generations away isn't infelicitous, there shouldn't be any reason not to specify it. |
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| Busifer | Jan 9 2008, 01:40 PM Post #26 |
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Nadiin, one asks permission to venture back to the topic of Deliverer as a book/story? One gratefully received a much anticipated first print of the paperback edition this monday evening, and read the final words late tuesday night. One deliberately have stayed off all the Deliverer specific threads, waiting for what feels like ages to read the book... Well in my hands I devoured it like mad. I really liked it. The ending was too fast for me, felt like some things was missing, and those 'robot' things was just... too weird. I did shake my head when it started to move. Else; nice pacing between the Bren and Caijeri bits, even though I think some of Caijeris musings are too grown-up for a 8 yo kid, like his reflections on the Bren/Jago and Ilisidi/Cenedi relationships. But then we don't know much about atevi kids, do we? And I'm with those starting to feel uncomfortable with how Tabini seems more of a disposable nicety than a given. I really like the guy. Also, the skills Bren have is not really in high demand any more. A lot of atevi reads and speaks Mosphei, making part of his traditional job redundant. Another: Someone mentioned Bren's relationship with Jago was dangling loose in this book? I don't felt it to be that way. Rather, it's only a matter of days since that bath in Tirnamadi ;-), and I seem to remember how he seeks her out when they're still at the dowager's when she has her own quarters ('down a side hall'), and another when they have moved to Uncle's apartment, were 'the night seemed suddenly much too far away' after 'he looked up at Jago, saw the mischeif in her look'. 'Two days' of such 'bliss' was ended when she woke him with the news that Caijeri was missing. Then follows some classic soviet ice hockey, as tempo goes - not much time for cuddling, eh? And the closing remark could be interpreted as an affirmation of their relationship, especially with her hand on his arm. Or? Am I so off in my reading? What is a bit loose, I think, is how their relationship will evolve. On the station and on the ship it was relatively easy going. Now that they're back it has to take a back seat - not be as obvious as it has been allowed to be in those previous and closed environments. Will that put strains on their relationship? Now that dangers will be more unpredictable, will there be a conflict between their private and their public relationships? Will this cause a break, and with whom? Well, enough on that. I'm not going to argue about the Algini/Tano relationship. I'm with those who thinks :cherryh: keeps it ambiguous on purpose. In Pretender Banichi mentioned Algini having manchi to Bren through Tano? I think it was that mention that formed the basis for my own speculation as to their relationship, but really, I don't care much (as I don't care much about sexual preferences regarding anyone). I think, though, that Algini held manchi to the previous guildmaster and when he was confirmed dead Algini was free to 'change' over to Bren. Which he was about to anyway, as hinted at in Pretender? Or do I remember wrongly? *Going off to fret while waiting for book 10 first to be written, then published - this will take FOREVER!!! Agony!* |
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| pence | Jan 9 2008, 04:40 PM Post #27 |
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Agree about the agony of waiting. In my rereading indulgence, I have gotten up to Pretender, and found that I have misplaced my copy. Much mumbling of assorted language last night. BUT, it will stretch the re-experience out! |
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| Busifer | Jan 9 2008, 04:56 PM Post #28 |
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Agony: yes I can see rereading coming my way... already done it once, in waiting for the PB edition of Deliverer. At least I promised myself I will be allowed this series in hardback in the future as it's going to be a new set of three... |
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| Busifer | Jan 9 2008, 05:36 PM Post #29 |
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BTW, Pence-ji, one sincerely hopes the copy of Pretender will be found soon!!! |
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| Resa | Jan 9 2008, 06:06 PM Post #30 |
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Drawer of Stuff
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Busifer - Having only recently read Deliverer myself, I'd have to agree on many points, with the small exception of Cajieri. And that's only because I was once a child who constantly pondered how to get out of things in elementary school -- how to escape this or that room if it was InVaDeD by bad people -- so, I can see Cajieri doing some of what he did. I agree whole-heartedly regarding Bren and Jago's relationship. And if the current situation is bound to cause any stressors, I'd place my bet on it being on Bren's side. As I think that he needs that very concrete example of affection to keep going in that society. Everywhere else, he's just assuming it's there, but can't "feel" it. He's pretty sure, but that's all he can rely on. Look at how insecure Bren's become regarding Tabini. His staff seemed to find this quite surprising (If I remember certain scenes correctly in Deliverer ,,, or was it Pretender?). They seemed to understand that there was danger. That certain forces on the mainland and around Tabini wanted Bren dead, but seemed surprised that he might consider himself so easily discarded by Tabini himself. Also ... and here's where I probably am just reading into something, but I've begun to judge some of Tabini's possible "feeling" regarding Bren via what Cajieri thinks and feels. Cajieri being something of a "small Tabini". Oh, and I also adore Tabini. He may be in a tricky position, but I do hope he's here to stay. And I'd love to see more of his thinking and "feelings" revealed in future books -- though it does make him seem more ... (cough, cough) "human" and vulnerable, and less a force of nature. And as always, Ilisidi must always exist. She is still my favorite Bren book character. Love that cane! |
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8:45 AM Jul 11