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Things That Make You Go "hmmm?"; Q&A Foreigner Trivia
Topic Started: Aug 19 2007, 05:24 PM (1,148 Views)
Jeimani
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Nandiin, one could not find an appropriate thread for this (and fears this may have been discussed before one joined the group) , but there are certain questions one has about the Foreigner series and answers are not forthcoming from my own memory. :Arrgh:

While waiting for the next Foreigner book, I have been re-reading all the prior books and I have several puzzling questions: [1] Besides Valasi, do we know anything about Tabini's family, i.e. mother and brothers and/or sisters?
[2] One seems to recall that it was a 3 hour airplane flight from Shejidan to Malguri. How, then, do Babsidi, Nokhada, et all show up in Taiben for the retrieval of Jase and Yolanda? Or am I completely mistaken about this? [3] It is clear that Atevi do not domesticate animals for food purposes, but is there any indication that they have domestic companion animals or even animals (other than macheiti) to be used for hunting purposes?

Again, one apologizes if these topics were covered ages ago. These are just nagging little questions. :HB:
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Felicitous Sk8er
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Jeimani-ji,

Because you were clearly wondering where to post, I took the liberty of moving your most excellent thread to The Cherryh Grove, as it is more likely to garner discussion there. The Quinaltine Steps is certainly fine -- but a number of associates never wander down there, as they are most interested in Cherryh-specific :cherryh: discussions, & not in the conglomeration of topics that comprise The Quinaltine Steps.
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Reading_fox

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I'm not competant enough to answer [1] or [2], although it seems unlikely Tabini would have brothers/sisters who could vie for power against him.

There is little mention of brotherhood at all, maybe they are generally single children

regarding [3] although it si hard to tell, it seems likely in human history that domestication for food came first and then the idea of pets... that special lamb saved from slaughter perhaps. Hence without the domestication there wouldn't be the possability of pets. However there is the macheiti - one wonders how they came to be. In some climates they may have equivalent different animals? I'm sure may would like a wiki' as pet!
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morgaine0000

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I don't think much has been said about Tabini's mother in the books.

I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned that atevi do keep animals for milk. I vaguely remember Bren mentioning that the atevi compunction against keeping animals for slaughter, did not apply to keeping them for milk. I would also guess they keep them for eggs since they seem to eat a lot of them. I doubt that they would be able to find enough just by foraging. I think house pets might be problematic because all of the animals seem to belong to herds or colonies - you'd have to keep a whole bunch of them.
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moira
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re: Tabini's poss siblings

one is thinking that aijiin would not have siblings, by design (we hear of other atevi having multiple children; one remembers the older couple talking to Bren in Malguri). some of "what it takes" to be an aiji seem possibly heritable, but much seems to be situational. one reason for a future aiji to be an only child is so that that child will not have any rivals to the aijiinate or be "encumbered" with any possible (& possibly messy) man'chi to siblings, especially when that child and those siblings are adult. another reason for a future aiji to be an only child might be because so very very much is invested in that child, and that child is taught in a certain way and treated in a certain way, and this is very labor-intensive. it simply isn't worth it to do this for more than one child (especially when the other children/sibs might use this training and education to vie with each other for the aijiinate and thus destabilize that to which they were born to bring stability). and then of course maybe a third reason for a future aiji to be an only child is that the current aiji (father/etc) is a very busy person and doesn't want to have to fret about a whole brood of children trying to unseat him or assassinate him in his sleep.

Tabini's mother is never mentioned. one believes we (one of us, probably Felicity-ji on behalf of some of us) asked the Goddess about what we knew about Tabini's mother, and the answer was something along the lines of, we don't know about Tabini's mother. lol. perhaps she was a convenient consort with strong man'chi to Valasi, and the contract precluded her from having any access to Tabini. one guesses.

the question about atevi keeping companion animals is interesting. obviously they have kept mecheiti as hunting animals for ages. the practice of keeping animals for milk was introduced by humans and was a human idea. one does not remember a single reference to atevi keeping companion animals, and this topic does not seem to have been addressed directly in the books. but one thinks that, at least in Ragi culture, keeping companion animals has not really occurred to them. why would they bring creatures into their homes when those creatures could roam free and happy (and less possibly dangerous to atevi) in the wild? certainly the human habit of keeping dogs seems to have started way way back when humans benefited directly from wolves adopted as pups helping to hunt for and protect the tribe. this doesn't seem to have happened with atevi, and one suspects that atevi would not risk upsetting the natural order of things by bringing a wild animal (babe or not) into their homes. it seems rather unkaibu. but, different atevi cultures have different ideas about what is kaibu and what is not, so maybe it's just the Ragi that don't keep pets?


ps I hope I used the word "aijiinate" correctly.
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Aja Jin
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Reading_fox,Aug 20 2007
06:01 AM
...
regarding [3] although it si hard to tell, it seems likely in human history that domestication for food came first and then the idea of pets... that special lamb saved from slaughter perhaps. Hence without the domestication there wouldn't be the possability of pets. However there is the macheiti - one wonders how they came to be. In some climates they may have equivalent different animals? I'm sure may would like a wiki' as pet!

saw a very interesting show the other night about dog breeding, and how dogs and people are interconnected. humans have been living with and domesticating wolves/dogs many thousands of years ago, and the egyptians started breeding them for desired traits (salukis).

the genetics of dogs makes them particularly versatile in terms of breeding and diverse size, appearance, etc. hence the enormous variety of dogs, with many new varieties bred since the late 1800/early 1900s.

they showed some experiments conducted with dogs and wolves.

first, they hid a treat in a bucket, and had a second empty bucket. both were "scented" with the same meat.
a person stood between them, and pointed at the bucket with the treat.
the dog went right to the treat every time. the wolf didn't.

next they put a treat on a rope inside a cage. both the wolf and the dog easily "pawed" the rope to get the treat. they then tied a the rope to the cage so it couldn't be pulled out.
the dog tried several times and then gave up, came over to its handler, and gave them a "hey how about a little help here" look.
the wolf couldn't get the treat, but never gave up and didn't look to the humans for help.

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Jeimani
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Many thanks, sk8er-ji for moving this topic to a more felicitous location.

One thinks nand' moira's ideas about only children make a lot of sense. I've read two different sci-fi books where the ruling class only allows certain number of children to be born into the royal family or makes it forbidden for certain ones to "breed" on account of the fears about intra-family strife, conspiracies and assassinations.

I seem to recall Tabini remarking to Damiri that he needed an heir. Maybe that is all an aiji wishes to have---one child to groom for the job of aiji.
There was also mention of Banichi and Jago giving special care over Cajeiri because he might be seen as an "expendable", i.e. Tabini's guards would see to Tabini's safety over Cajeiri's because a live aiji could produce another heir if the first one died or was killed.
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magicdomino

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In Pretender, the heir of Dur, Rejiri, tells Bren about his two new little sisters by his father's second marriage. He goes on to say, "I am indisputably the eldest and papa . . . has treaty ties to her (Rejiri's mother) house that he will never break." Still, a single child would solve a lot of problems before they start.

As for pets, I imagine atevi have a cat/ferret equivilent to hunt vermin infesting food stores, and areas where mecheiti are impractical may have dog equivients for hunting. But, as morgaine0000 stated, you would have to have a whole pack. Not something you want in the house.

One thing that I wondered about the milk and egg animals: what happens to males? Milk animals have to be bred to keep producing milk and 50% of the offspring would be male. Plus, it is much easier to milk an animal who is the result of generations of breeding for a calm temper. This makes it unlikely that females are captured from the wild, but are excess males simply released to the wild?
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Neco the Nightwraith
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I read in Foreigner that the atevi do not have any tracking animals, other than the mecheiti, so that cuts out any dog equivalents for scent tracking/attacking/guarding.

I remember it being mentioned that they also had milk animals, but I don't remember it being said that humans brought the idea to them. I don't recall reading anything about egg laying creatures, other than the few mentions of there being reptile egg dishes.

I also remember that to keep animals for slaughter was un-Kabiu to the Ragi atevi, but not the Nesebi atevi down south, where processed meats was also not considered un-Kabiu, whereas in Ragi society they are.
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Reading_fox

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I had another thought about pets. You have to *like* them. I don't think atevi would ever get over the :salad: possabilities.
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griffinmoon
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I agree, but perhaps all they would have to do is "approve" of them...
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Jeimani
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Nand' griffinmoon your observation cracks me up. :rofl: One is attempting to envision how one could communicate "approval" to the exceptionally zealous K9 that seems to be stuck to me like Velcro. I'm thinking that you and Nand' Reading Fox are probably right. One most decidedly believes that Ilisidi would NOT APPROVE of the of the dog fur tumbleweeds rolling across my wood floor at this moment (Siberian Husky in Florida at 100 degrees!) or the slob that accompanies every K9 display of affection. Perhaps the aloofness of a feline type creature would be more in keeping with the Atevi temperament, but that's about as much as I could imagine. I think they'd approve of any vermin-eradicating benefits also as Nand' Magicdomino suggests----very useful and properly "circle of life" /kabiu.
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morgaine0000

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It does make sense to have only one child, given the way that Atevi society is set up. However, that strategy seems risky, since you are betting everything on that child not having an accident or getting sick before he has a child of his own. I wonder if a sibling is more likely to have a strong man'chi to his elder sibling if the elder is an adult when the younger ones are children.
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leaf

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Am I right in thinking that Damiri is the heir to the Atageini and yet she has a brother/half brother?

Could it be that the number of siblings might be determined by the number of potential inheritances? Although in that case Cajeiri could have at least one sbiling since he is Illisidi's heir as well as Tabini's?
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Neco the Nightwraith
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I thought Damiri had a younger sister who had had an illegitimate pregnancy, and the girl that Cajeiri knew was the child of the birth, the one that brought him cakes.
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