Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Shejidan. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Body Language Perception; About atevi perceiving Bren's body
Topic Started: Jun 11 2007, 10:01 AM (1,311 Views)
Shadow007

Citizen of the Association
In Deliverer, Cajeiri remarks on Bren's "openness" and the Atevi's easy perception of his reactions.

It leads to 2 remarks/questions :

Bren tries hard not to show his emotions, and seems to think he's hiding them well, but Cajeiri seems to tell that Bren is failing at that. I have some "explanation" : Perhaps the Atevi see better in the dark because they may see some part of the infra-red specter. In that case, Bren's emotions would clearly be seen as blood movements ...

How close is Human/ :atevi body language ? It seems quite strange that they are "compatible" enough that Atevi can read a human, even though the species is "quite" diffrent. I could understand that the Paidhi, given his education/ability to see lots of Atevi during his work could learn the "Mappng" between an Atevi body language and the Human one, but the other way ...

Should we discuss the topic around some :t ? :)
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Zen
Member Avatar
TaCom Quality Theoritical Studies Commander
Citizen of the Association
Err just because someone thinks they can read another, does'nt necessarily mean they can.

I'd warn Atevi to be ultra cautious really about human responces, just as humans are so advised over Atevi.

I really find it deeply suspect one might grant Atevi superior abilities in so many fields, the universe just does'nt work that way to what I've seen in earth.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
barleysmama
willing slave a a very bouncy kitten
Citizen of the Association
I think Cajeiri just knows Bren so well from being on the ship in close quarters for so long. And the other atevi alos know Bren very well.

We never hear how Uncle thinks about Bren's "openness" or Lady Drien. It's just coming from the atevi closest to Bren. Besides, Bren blushes and that can tell Sidi- ji a lot!!! :rofl:

Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
camilla
Member Avatar

Citizen of the Association


Don't forget that Bren himself remarks on how he's gotten sloppy in his habits from being around ship humans and completely trusted Atevi of same/allied man'chi so long on ship.

He has to remind himself "Face!" in the confrontation with the Ajuri on the steps. An alert Bren, back on perfect court manners, might be harder to read.

And Zen and Barleysmama's previous points about Cajieri thinking he can read Bren's face without actually getting it right, and Atevi being careful about drawing conclusions from human expression are all well taken.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
griffinmoon
Member Avatar
Ranger
Citizen of the Association
Nadiin:
Indeed, atevi not getting it right helped lead to the War.

Zen nadi:
On Atevi superiority: consider their reaction when things don't respond the way they think it should. Out of their social patterns they are violently tempremental. Humans would "go with the flow" alot easier than an atava would.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Zen
Member Avatar
TaCom Quality Theoritical Studies Commander
Citizen of the Association
Thats a curious thought!

Why do Atevi go 'spare' so to speak when things step outside the 'norm'?

IS there something deep going on there?

Humans 'go with the flow' is a complicated thing.

Question do Atevi musicians 'jam'?
Can they do Jazz?
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Resa
Member Avatar
Drawer of Stuff
Citizen of the Association
Zen,Jun 13 2007
02:19 PM
Question do Atevi musicians 'jam'?
Can they do Jazz?

Ah, now there is a area I'd wondered about. How does their music work? Is it terribly structured?

Do they have a younger generation doing their version of rock and roll? Do teenaged atevi pretend to sing their favorite songs behind the closed door of their bedrooms? Do they have rebellious music? I just can't imagine an atevi group jumping around on the stage screaming into the microphones ...
Would love to see that though.

Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Tuuli
Member Avatar

Citizen of the Association
I can't help thinking here about that first pizza party in Invader. Someone put on music, and some of the servants began a "solemn, hands-behind-the-back line step", and madam Saidin was scandalized at the idea that they would teach it to Bren. In her mind "the paidhi was much too dignified for that." Makes one wonder what her attitude toward "jamming" would be... Then again, she's madam Saidin, young people (like Cajeiri) might be a different thing.

Quote:
 
I just can't imagine an atevi group jumping around on the stage screaming into the microphones ...
Would love to see that though.


Same here, Resa-ji. I have enough trouble in imagining an atevi jazz band... :lol:
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Sherbs
Member Avatar
Frozen Fruit Confection
Citizen of the Association
Quote:
 
I have enough trouble in imagining an atevi jazz band...


Me too, just imagine the horror of the Counters!

The Numbers would be just unbearable!
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Zen
Member Avatar
TaCom Quality Theoritical Studies Commander
Citizen of the Association
How Ironic. The auther being notable for not being that mathematical of mind may have by some subconsious process have included something deeply mathematical!

We live in a world of Chaos (non-linear) math. The waving of the leaves of a bush, the whisper of grass, the trickle of water over stones, all obay this apparently random formula. Yet within it is pattern.

And life and death depend on seeing if not the pattern itself, the jaring oddity that does not obay it. The bush that waves because a hunter has knocked it, the stalker that moves in the grass, the fish or crocodile in the river. Ingore this, see it not and you have no warning of the approaching danger, your chances of survival consequently reduced.

So much of what we are as humans is intimately associated with that ability to see the 'odd one out' of the many, to hear the discordant note in the piece of music.
Much in mathematics was discovered by this route, in physics, a great deal of science, so much we've discovered by the remarking "thats odd".

Which rather beggars the question, whats going with the Atevi and their world?
Is it somehow more structured itself?
Or can a simpler method apply which underpins Atevi aesthetic?

Consider the classic English garden, grass, trees, bushes, it is a idealised model of the primative enviroment of early humans. Space enough to see a threat from a distance, trees close enough to scamper up for safety.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Arianne_Luinithil
Member Avatar
Bu-javid tekikin
Citizen of the Association
Shadow007,Jun 11 2007
10:01 AM
In Deliverer, Cajeiri remarks on Bren's "openness" and the Atevi's easy perception of his reactions.

It leads to 2 remarks/questions :

Bren tries hard not to show his emotions, and seems to think he's hiding them well, but Cajeiri seems to tell that Bren is failing at that. I have some "explanation" : Perhaps the Atevi see better in the dark because they may see some part of the infra-red specter. In that case, Bren's emotions would clearly be seen as blood movements ...


I don't know about seeing in the infrared range, but in the books, it's noted that atevi eyes display chatoyancy--they glimmer gold in dim or darkened conditions with little light--like cat's eyes--see Invader and Precursor, for starters. :atevi Maybe their eyes are built a little like cats' are, to take advantage of what light there is in natural surroundings at night? It would explain the superior nightsight of atevi, without resorting to rather exotic explanations like infrared.

I agree with the earlier posts: humans don't find it easy to read one another under certain circumstances and across cultural divisions, and Bren is actually seen as cold by other Mospheirans, so I'd say he's not as open as one might expect; sloppiness and being off-guard notwithstanding. And atevi are not exactly culturally or biologically able to read and/or predict human expressions and emotional responses correctly with a high degree of assuredness, we've had that expounded to us time and time again in the books. So Cajeiri may think he's reading Bren right, and maybe he is, but there's no room for absolute confidence.

Perhaps atevi are able to see through nand' paidhi's mask simply because he's had to learn to mask his expressions at a much older age--it's not bred and conditioned into him like I daresay atevi kids are for the sake of politeness. Remember the child who commented on Bren's appearance or something in Foreigner and got promptly shushed by his parents and scolded for being insheibi, indiscreet; getting himself noticed? Hiding one's emotions and reactions, especially in the presence of those not within one's man'chi, would seem to be proper, and displaying reactions or emotions especially in the presence of strangers, such as smiling at them as rude or at least not quite socially proper and uncommon for atevi, from what I've read. (IIRC, in Precursor Bren asks his staff to smile often at the station humans, even if it seems to be impolite and not the proper thing to do.)

Therefore Bren would've had much less practice at hiding his emotions and reactions and definitely less experience poking holes into people's masks. Masking his facial responses and emotions would be something he had to consciously remind himself of now and again. It's not something that's second nature to him from childhood, and not normal or common to human society, therefore as an adult human he still slips, and his emotional control isn't absolute; the man has a temper and does display it every so often.

Unlike your standard atevi kid who probably has been learning from a very young age to see when and what others are hiding, how to hide their facial responses and their emotions, whether they know it or not, because it's just so much a part of their social norm and culture they wouldn't really know how else to be in public, one thinks. It would be an essential skill in atevi society to at least get an indicator of what the other party is feeling behind the mask, preferably before the ateva gets so :mad: as to start filing Intent and orders the fool :shoot: or :knife: . :lol:

In this case, I wonder how would Cajeiri be seen by other atevi in terms of his transparency. Might this ability to hide one's emotions, assuming it is learnt and not biological (which I doubt) have been affected slightly by keeping company overlong with human children?

Mind you, all this may be so much hot air: I haven't been able to read any book after Precursor, and will not likely be able to anytime soon, to my profound regret. :Arrgh: :baji I may be able to do so someday soon.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Eskaybe

Citizen of the Association
Excellent topic for discussion!

I've thought that Atevi picked up on slight muscle movements, changes in skin color or breathing that a human wouldn't notice. Think about how a mosquito biting your leg knows when you are going to swat it no matter how hard you try not to give notice.

The Atevi wouldn't always need to identify the emotion or understand it. It may be enough just to know that Bren reacted to a certain word or situation. Of course, the better they know Bren, the better their read of him.

Eskaybe

Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
barleysmama
willing slave a a very bouncy kitten
Citizen of the Association
I guess Bren better never play poker with Banichi et al. He'd lose his life savings after one game! :lol:
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Arianne_Luinithil
Member Avatar
Bu-javid tekikin
Citizen of the Association
But Bren does play at dice with Tabini and the aiji's staff every so often at Taiben...And manages to hold his own. But you're right--poker is a totally different ballgame. In this I think Eskaybe-nadi's view is logical. Atevi are mostly expressionless from a human point of view. Wouldn't it make sense that atevi are extremely good at observing body language? They'd have to be to function in their society without getting Filed on should they offend someone. That said, I can just imagine atevi trying to guess Bren's poker hand from his minute shifts of expression and posture. :rofl:
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Tevia

Citizen of the Association
I recall - I think - Jago playing Gin with Bren. I think something was said such as, "Pardon me, Bren-ji, isn't it correct to say Gin every time in this situation? Perhaps I misunderstood."
Atevi understand counting so very well that any card game would be quite tough.
And yes poker bluffing would be fun. And it would be interesting to find out what each character's "tell" is.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums. Reliable service with over 8 years of experience.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The Cherryh Grove · Next Topic »
Add Reply