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Hearsay Or Fact?; Sexuality in Cyteen
Topic Started: Jun 11 2007, 08:51 AM (2,564 Views)
yellow
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I think the misunderstanding is being perpetrated by the belligerent smiley ^_-
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Felicitous Sk8er
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Ice Queen Assassin
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:ot!

Yes, the belligerent smilie can definately give the wrong impression if one doesn't know how it is meant. I use it all the time, not to be contrary, or to rebuke anyone, but simply as a signal that I'm heading off on a tangent. Unfortunately, :ot! is the best we have. Too bad it doesn't have a smile instead. Maybe the Guild can find another? :baji

I came here to

:ot! TO BE CONT -- PIZZA JUST ARRIVED
BACK -- But must leave again for work. Going cRaZy!

I'll need to post again later, maybe in a week when I have more time -- dtr getting married this weekend -- but I wanted to say Camilla-ji, one was most moved by your post about your beloved brother. There are many wonderful things about Shejidan, but the best are it's kind, open, thoughtful associates. :rose2:
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hrhspence
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:ot2 :ot! :ot2 :ot! :ot2
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barleysmama
willing slave a a very bouncy kitten
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:ot2 Make up your mind already, Spence- ji. :lol:
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Kokipy

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With Spence-ji around, it is simply a matter of asking, and the smilie shall be given. :rose2:
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knn envoy
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I just misunderstood.

A round of :t by way of thanks to all. I attest to its safety.

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flyingkai

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suzdal,Jun 11 2007
03:17 PM
We know that Ari 1 placed Grant with Jordan to separate Justin away from Jordan because she wanted a more tractable and "less-flawed" Warrick to work with.  There's nothing like throwing in a lover to drive a wedge between a person and the parent of the same sex as the lover.  Then, once the separation is made, it should be pretty easy for an engineer like Ari to slide into (maybe sexually, maybe not - although she certainly had no problem using sex in the programming of Justin) the dominant and controlling role of the now pliable Warrick.  I think he'd jump through any hoop she wanted, eventually, because she was the programmer.  She has the keys to him and just about everyone else.


My understanding of Grant's placement is a bit different. From Ari I's file on Justin, she states "Estim(ated) Res(ner Index of) 180+ and comp(ares) favorab(ly) w(ith) pat [father] (but) lo(w) aggr(e)s(sion level) ref(erence to) pressence dom(inant) g(ender)-i(dentical)-p(arent) ergo [I ordered production of] G(rant)ALX [as Justin Warrick's companion]...." pg. 549

My interpretation is that because Jordan was such a dominant personality, Justin couldn't be, unless another factor was entered into their relationship. My estimate is that Ari tweaked Grant so that Justin could reach his full potential.
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cicely58
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There was also a mention in there (somewhere; I don't have the book with me) that Grant was taped to be particularly supportive of his partner. I think this bolsters the idea of Grant as a support for Justin, rather than as a wedge between Justin and Jordan.
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Chomiji
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I've just been re-reading Cyteen ... once again, I come to the conclusion that Justin is gay, as was his father/older before him. And certainly the implication is that Grant was meant to counteract some of Jordan's dominating tendencies, which would have prevented Justin from reaching his full potential from Ari I's viewpoint (and likely Ari II as well).

I was thinking, on this re-read, that it would have even been more effective to have done something with Paul's tape (you remember Paul - he was Jordan's azi companion, who "doctored their [i.e., Justin's and Grant's] skinned knees when they were children"), but given who Jordan was, I bet he created and administered all of Paul's tape himself.

- Cho

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moira
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I always thought one reason that Ari I paired Grant with Justin is precisely because Jordan had Paul... and she was trying to manipulate the situation so that Justin would grow up to be a Special just like his father... so in a way, Justin is a Jordan II. after all, she planned Ari II's life so that the details would be as close to her (Ari I's) life as possible. I thought Ari I did the same for Justin.

Ari I did seduce (or take advantage of, or whatever the hell you want to call that) Justin--- precisely as she did to Jordan and at the same age. I always thought this was part of the set-up to keep Justin's life as much like Jordan's as possible.

whether or not Jordan was inherently gay is something I don't know how we'd know for sure, ever. maybe he turned to Paul because he felt like a threatened outsider at Reseune.

and maybe Ari I planned for Justin to feel like a threatened outsider, so he'd turn to Grant. and this would mirror Jordan's circumstances and thus keep Justin on the same track as Jordan, hopefully towards becoming a Special.

? making sense ?

I do not rule out that some people are born inherently gay, or inherently straight, or somewhere in between. or that, whichever way you're born, circumstances in your life or your own personal decisions might shift you more towards gay, straight, bi, trans, whatever.

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flyingkai

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I was thinking about this last night, and had post-it-ed a quote from Justin, when being interviewed by Dr. Petros, when he alluded to the male/male relatioship being the example for him....damn I wish my motherboard hadn't fried and I was on my home comp....
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Chomiji
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Yes, Petros is grilling him, and questions Justin's relationship with Grant, saying something like "An Azi can't protect himself from that sort of thing." And Justin says (IIRC) "It's the model we grew up with, remember?"

Also, once Ari II gets full access to Ari I's notes, she comments that the failure of Ari I's sexual relationship with Jordan probably had more to do with the fact that Jordan "wasn't hetero to begin with," IIRC.



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Joe

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Justin and Grant's relationship has always seemed a little confusing. Sometimes Justin says Grant is like a brother, other times it seems that they have an intimate relationship. Personally, I hope they are a couple.
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Chomiji
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I also think they are a couple, even though they were raised as brothers. I think that they turned to each other physically after Jordan had to leave.

What I think is interesting is that no one has ever mentioned CJC/Fancher as being possibly relevant, even in the most marginal way, to this discussion. Even now I feel as though I'm raising something utterly verboten.

- Cho
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hrhspence
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Yes, I think their relationship is very private and we shouldn't intervene.
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