Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Shejidan. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Hearsay Or Fact?; Sexuality in Cyteen
Topic Started: Jun 11 2007, 08:51 AM (2,560 Views)
Felicitous Sk8er
Member Avatar
Ice Queen Assassin
Admin
Copied from Torturing the Paidhi

I posted:
Quote:
 
My head is spinning: this thread has gone off in so many directions! But I must comment about Camilla's comment:

Quote:
 
Especially in    :cherryh: 's universe, which has several gay characters in Cyteen, and displays no homophobia.


Shejidan has had several threads devoted to this very topic. Maybe someone could locate them, but the gist of the debate was about if certain characters in Cyteen were truly gay -- or just seemed that way. To wit, one character remarked that they 'had heard'. That's hearsay, so IMHO we don't truly know.



Does anyone know where this thread is? I suspect it is on the original site. stePH, if anyone knows, it would be you! :lol:
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Felicitous Sk8er
Member Avatar
Ice Queen Assassin
Admin
Found it! It was tucked safely away in the Archives!

Re-Reading Cyteen


<re-reads thread>


OK, I'll go with the position that Justin wasn't truly gay -- he simply had a homosexual relationship with Grant. See old thread for discussion.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Reading_fox

Citizen of the Association
I've just finished Cyteen for the first time - but far away from the last - So I've a good recall of events but not yet the re-reading to put them all in perspective.

To me Justin is definitely gay - in many places he is nervous at even the thought of female hands touching him, until Ari II works an intervention.

Of course some of this is sparked off by Ari I's treatment of him - he had been with a girl before Ari I 'turned' him.

To me the Union was completely unconcerned with how Cit/Azi paired up, any azi would do as requested, and providing the CIT treated them 'fairly' there were no complaints. There are less references to CIT-CIT pairs, and I think all those mentioned were straight.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
suzdal
Member Avatar
Minister of Silly Hats
Citizen of the Association
CYTEEN SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS!

***************************

Well, not that I know anything about anything, but I always thought that one of the big points of "Cyteen" was how easily molded and manipulatable people can be. If you have the tools and the leverage (including genetic coding, drugs and the right tape) you can turn them into anything. Both Aris definitely mold azi and cits alike. We know that Ari 1 placed Grant with Jordan to separate Justin away from Jordan because she wanted a more tractable and "less-flawed" Warrick to work with. There's nothing like throwing in a lover to drive a wedge between a person and the parent of the same sex as the lover. Then, once the separation is made, it should be pretty easy for an engineer like Ari to slide into (maybe sexually, maybe not - although she certainly had no problem using sex in the programming of Justin) the dominant and controlling role of the now pliable Warrick. I think he'd jump through any hoop she wanted, eventually, because she was the programmer. She has the keys to him and just about everyone else. If she wants him sleeping with men he'll be sleeping with men. If she wants him sleeping with women he'll be sleeping with women (kinda like our poor paidhi in the "Toturing the Paidhi" thread). I think his sexual orientation is almost entirely moot. Or maybe plastic is a better adjective. Justin will be (and is) pretty much whatever Ari wanted him to be.

I really think all of Cyteen is about the genius of Ariane Emory as a social engineer. She had a vision of where she wants Reseune, Cyteen, Union and I'd guess even the whole human species to go and she is willing to ruthlessly use every tool at her disposal to make it happen. I'm pretty sure that her death was actually a suicide. She knew she was going to die and she used her first death as a lever to move things around. I can't even tell what all of the outcomes she was trying for were, but I'm quite sure she accomplished them. I probably reread the end of that book a hundred times, no joke. I was trying to figure out what happened. I just couldn't get it. What I think today is that it's all about social Darwinism. May the best Special win. Reseune arguably houses and polishes the best and brightest minds humanity has to offer. I think Cyteen is about the struggle for dominance as to who will win. As far as I can tell, at the end of the book, when the smoke clears, all of the other Specials are either harnessed or dead. Emory wins.

And as for who I think would win and Alliance/Union confrontation? Union for sure. More thorough and better long range planning.

I gotta tell ya, I'm not even sure that Union is human any more. I think the theme of "What is human" is key in many of :cherryh: 's works. I think Union may be the next stage of evolution. We may be looking at a hive mind from the top during the infancy of its first queen (or maybe its only queen - with the serial immortality Reseune is working on).

I am very curious to see where the new Cyteen book goes.

Peace,
Suzdal
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
suzdal
Member Avatar
Minister of Silly Hats
Citizen of the Association
All that verbiage and I neglected to say that, depending on your viewpoint, the fact that Jordan is gay might indicate a higher probability that his clone would be gay as well.

Peace,
Suzdal
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
camilla
Member Avatar

Citizen of the Association
CYTEEN SPOILERS:

This started up again because I said in another thread that Cyteen had gay characters and I liked how it wasn't homophobic.

At the very least, Ari states clearly in her notes to Ari II that part of the problems she had with her sexual relationship with Jordan, Justin's dad/clone/whatever, was that he was "not hetero to begin with". Justin is Jordan's clone: I think that might have something to do with his orientation. Grant's love for Justin may be a product of tape, but nonetheless is real (azi feelings are not made of plastic, as Grant says). So I guess I come down on the "Justin is really gay" side of the debate.

My other point in the aforementioned other thread was that there is no homophobia in Cyteen. All the above sexual relationships seem to be an acceptable part of human sexuality. Nobody is giving either Justin or Grant tape to "correct" their sexual orientation, nor did anyone seem to give any to Jordan before he got his Special status. And they DO give tape to correct poor posture, penmanship, etc.

Nor are they fooling around with hormones in Cits at certain stages of fetal brain development, which appears to be, even more than genes, the cause of biological gayness.

Why not? Isn't homosexuality one of those things that are not good for the continuance of the human species? Shouldn't it have evolved away because gay people have fewer children? Cyteen is one big eugenics program after all.

I suspect that homosexuality survives in human society in part because, well we're just horny fu*kers, and we'll do it with anything (most of our close primate cousins are bisexual). Horniness IS a survival trait for our species.

I think the other reason it survives is that having some members of the human group who don't have kids frees them to help meet the enormous childcare demands other humans' kids entail. The latest thinking in evolutionary biology is that this is why menopause developed in humans and many of these same scientists now think this is why homosexuality persists.

I suspect the engineers at Cyteen realize this and might be reluctant to mess with something that old in the genome, that might be essential to human survival.

There is also thought in the gay community, which may or may not stand up to scientific scrutiny, that gay people tend to have a higher percentage of very creative people among them than do straights. Myself, I think it's just that creative fields tend to attract those who feel different. Feeling different, such folks tend to be accepting of others' differences: i.e. gays are disproportionately in creative arts and sciences because they are accepted there, effect rather than cause. Still, there seem to be subtle brain structure differences, so who knows? Maybe Cyteen seems to have a lot of gay people in the House because they ARE more creative and the designers don't want to design it away.

Why do I care about this so much?

Look, I have a gay brother. He's one of those guys about whom it's been plain he was different since he was about 2. He only wanted to play doctor with other boys (drove my Sicilian dad crazy!) Liked to play house with the girls, hated sports, was/is gentle, sweet, and the other kids were calling him "faggot" as early as 1st grade.

I took custody of him when he was 13 and I was only 21 because my dad had died and my stepmother wanted to stick him in a mental institution, mainly for being gay. She would wail like Cassandra that he would grow up to molest small children. I get real protective of the people I love and I DON'T think there's anything inherently wrong with being gay. And if anyone wants to bash my brother (or anyone else) for being gay, they've got to get through me first. So I raised him all through his teenage years.

And despite all wicked stepmother's wailing, my brother's grown up to be a decent, kind, mostly sweet guy. He tells me he's never had sex with a woman, never even WANTED to have sex with a woman and doubts that he could. He says he was gay ever since he remembers, thinks that he's one of those for whom it is biologically determined and I believe him.

His very worst fault is that sometimes he's a bitchy gossip and something of a recluse, And despite all wicked stepmother's doom and gloom, he would NEVER molest a child! (He goes for the big, hairy trucker type. Kind of like me and my sister, in fact.) :)

Oh, and he doesn't always take my advice as the word of the Goddess anymore...fancy that! Which no one but me even considers to be a fault. :)

So, yeah, whether Justin, Grant, Jordan, whoever are really gay or not, I'm REAL happy with Cyteen! No wicked step parents to lock kids up, tell them they're going to hell or drive them to suicide. No tape equivalents of the camps gay kids are now forced into by those who can't accept that being gay is biological and fixed for some people. And not a bad thing, or anyone else's business, if it's NOT biological.



Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Aelith
Member Avatar
Veteran of the Messenger's Guild
Citizen of the Association
Brovo Cami-ji, having grown up in a fine arts community I have known many homosexuals. I concur with your thoughts.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Xheralt
Member Avatar

Citizen of the Association
One thing about Union in general -- the "you have to be hetero to perpetuate the species" argument loses something when you have big honking birthlabs to do that for you.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
knn envoy
Member Avatar

Citizen of the Association
Love the sensitivity in this thread. It's refreshing to see.

Was Justin gay?

Difficult to say. One of the reasons that I found Cyteen so interesting was the was the rather subtle way that sexuality, attraction and cohabitation were handled. It's true that homosexuality wasn't openly censured. But I wondered as I read whether I wasn't seeing small hints that suggest some cultural reservations about homosexual expression - mundane things, cohabitation, say, or public dancing or arguments, not the sex, I mean.

...Still, consider: on Cyteen, sex had ceased to be a necessary or even a functional component of procreation. In fact, sexual procreation was regarded with faint distaste. Sex had become decontextualised from its historically "fundamental" procreative dimension and therefore alternate expressions of sexuality would no longer represent such a threat to that "fundamental" dimension (or need, if you like). Certainly, Cyteen scientists would be perfectly aware that sex drive is a fundamental biological component to the human organism. It's certain to tie in profoundly to fight/flight responses, to the drive to compete (think Darwinian). Breed that out to eliminate one more or less desirable expression of that sexuality, and you may just get some serious and unexpected problems.

No, they treated it as a natural organic expression.

And this is why I liked the general treatment of sexuality in Cyteen. I've always wondered what it would be like to live in a world in which a statement such as "homosexuality is normal" would be met with raised brows... much the same way that one would regard somebody who suddenly realised "Hey! You know? We live on food!"

I guess that points out which side of the debate I land on. Was Justin gay?

Sometimes. :atwink
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Sherbs
Member Avatar
Frozen Fruit Confection
Citizen of the Association
I think it's undoubtedly true that changes in the relationship between sex and procreation change the way in which sexuality and sexual activity is viewed by society.

For example, look at the effect of the Pill. The Pill broke the link between sex and procreation, as a result it became possible for people to see sex as something you could do for pleasure, or other reasons, without having to take into account what the results might be. Admittedly, the Pill was never 100% foolproof but the perception of what was possible was changed.

In a society where contraception has been more or less perfected, and procreation is achieved in the laboratory and gestation in the incubator or whatever, what would happen to the preception of sex and sexuality? Sexual activity can become something one does for pleasure (or other motives), and therefore one does it with whoever pleases one most (or whoever best suits ones purpose).
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Theta9
Member Avatar
Muffin Top
Citizen of the Association
A bit :ot! but ...
knn envoy,Jun 15 2007
05:30 AM
...Still, consider:  on Cyteen, sex had ceased to be a necessary or even a functional component of procreation.  In fact, sexual procreation was regarded with faint distaste. 

Which makes perfect sense. What woman in her right mind would elect to be pregnant, with luxuries such as the birthlabs and wombtanks available?
Who wants to spend the better part of the year with morning sickness, bloating up like a tick, carrying several extra pounds of weight, and having to forego tobacco and/or alcohol (if one likes to use them)?
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
knn envoy
Member Avatar

Citizen of the Association
Off topic?
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Theta9
Member Avatar
Muffin Top
Citizen of the Association
knn envoy,Jun 15 2007
04:58 PM
Off topic?

Yeah, since sexual orientation seems to be the primary subject of discussion here, rather than opting to be pregnant.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
knn envoy
Member Avatar

Citizen of the Association
Theta9,Jun 16 2007
04:02 AM
Yeah, since sexual orientation seems to be the primary subject of discussion here, rather than opting to be pregnant.


I think I may have been unclear, but I wasn't referring to sex as reproductive act, rather the disassociation of the reproductive act from sex and how that would necessarily inform cultural attitudes towards expressions of sexuality. If we're discussing sexual orientation and a culture's attitudes towards it, I imagine that exploring the psychology of sex is entirely relevant.

My apologies to the folks contributing to the thread. I was unclear. I was mulling the idea of the "naturalness" of sexuality. Everybody's heard the "unnatural" argument regarding homosexuality in humans, but homosexuality seems to occur with some frequency in other terran species, which rather weakens the argument...

I thought Reseune scientists would probably understand that the sex drive would remain, despite the fact that the need for sex as method of reproduction had been eliminated. Understanding the natural urge, they would tend to leave it alone instead of editing it out as they did with other traits or behaviours, because it might have some profoundly undesirable side-effects.

This occurred to me as I read everybody's interesting posts and thought about why sexuality was something of a non-issue for people on Cyteen.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
Theta9
Member Avatar
Muffin Top
Citizen of the Association
knn envoy,Jun 16 2007
04:43 AM

I think I may have been unclear, but I wasn't referring to sex as reproductive act, rather the disassociation of the reproductive act from sex and how that would necessarily inform cultural attitudes towards expressions of sexuality. If we're discussing sexual orientation and a culture's attitudes towards it, I imagine that exploring the psychology of sex is entirely relevant.

My apologies to the folks contributing to the thread. I was unclear. I was mulling the idea of the "naturalness" of sexuality. Everybody's heard the "unnatural" argument regarding homosexuality in humans, but homosexuality seems to occur with some frequency in other terran species, which rather weakens the argument...

I meant my post was a bit :ot! not yours.
Offline Profile Quote this post Go to Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Fully Featured & Customizable Free Forums
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The Cherryh Grove · Next Topic »
Add Reply