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A Thread For The Counters
Topic Started: May 24 2007, 02:46 AM (1,703 Views)
hrhspence
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Hani Assassin
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Yes, we are expecting a technological hurricane just over the horizon.
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Arianne_Luinithil
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Bu-javid tekikin
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Winchester,Sep 18 2007
08:31 PM
Aww, I wouldn't call myself dedicated to the series - it's just that Cherryh was the flavor of the week. I go through books faster than a .303 bookworm (the native habitat of which is the Library of the Unseen University), and I plum ran out of McCaffrey books... :grin:


Which is why I said you were obviously one after my own heart, nadi--I go through books like you do. Could read three or more a day with enough time and motivation.

I never thought of it, but yeah, you're right. Atevi upbringing seems to be circumscribed by the bounds of propriety, especially for children of aijiin, one suspects. Atevi upbringing, as much as we've seen of it, especially from conservative houses seems very restrictive compared to the human model. Can't do this, do that, don't touch this, children are to be seen and not heard. Yech.

Curiously though, Ilisidi, whether through deliberate intent or simply accepting that shipboard life cannot be so restricted for a young ateva, seems not to have thumped Cajeriri's natural curiousity out of him; while not encouraging it, she hasn't really restrained him except when he's being too forward; while Bren of course allowed Cajeiri's inquisitivity to run mostly free and only curbing the excesses, and in some cases possibly helped it along a little (teaching him kyo comes to mind), much as in a human child's upbringing.

I don't think we're seeing a mere technological hurricane incoming--more like a F5 and above class storm in El Nino times.

Think of it! An atevi leader not afraid to innovate, cool-headed, highly rational and scientifically-minded (read: empirically minded; show me how and why this will/won't work, not spout stuff about bad or good numbers!), who can see his way to radical new solutions others wouldn't dream of in a century and initiate changes and reforms while dragging others along with his schemes, a curiousity as large as the world and then some, and a dead stubborness on getting his way and not afraid to ask pesky questions like how, why and why not. This we saw hints of in the last five books, Deliverer in particular. Pharaoh Akhenaten was such a person, at least in the bloody stubborn part and forward-looking part, and look what happened.

One worries about the possibility that Cajeiri is well on the way to being an even greater advocate of rapid change and new techs than his father, which could conceivably trigger major troubles in atevi society. After all we are told that many rural atevi are fearful of changes and new techs. Cajeiri's wanting to speed it even more would breed more trouble not only for the aishidi'tat but also for the human community on Mospheira.

Perhaps Bren should consult with Tabini as to possibly taking the heir in hand and explaining why too much change, especially radical change is not good, and perhaps knock it a little harder into Cajeiri's head that the separation between humans and atevi is there for very good reasons, and why "never the twain shall meet".

I think that Cajeiri has been lucky so far in that the humans he's been close to are mostly well-disposed towards atevi. I doubt that he actually thinks much about the fact that there are humans ill-disposed towards atevi--the fact hasn't really occured and sunk in yet because it's not quite a part of his daily life or frequently among the various things he has to consider, unlike Bren who lives with it every single day. Imagine what would happen if he (Cajeiri) actually met someone from the Heritage Party. I have the feeling that he would be very quickly disabused of the notion that all humans can get along fine with atevi.
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rosebladeaureliuskcir
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Actually, if I recall the information relayed in Foreigner, it isn't that atevi aren't willing to question. They're curious--they're painted as sometimes near-suicidal in their quest to assuage curiosity (no, nadi, holding a metal pole in a lightning storm does not seem wise...well, it just doesn't...well, if you must...). What kept them from advancing is that EVERY numerical system in all the world must accommodate the changes, to encompass them, and to consider them in each philosophy as having value. Therefore, they perfected each stage the way humans didn't. We were willing to say "What, it needs to be x strong? Well, build it for x.7 and we'll be covered...just in case," when in came to machinery and levees, bridges, etc. Atevi wanted exact numbers, which caused several disasters, especially when experimenting with steam engines.

Curiosity has been indulged to a certain extent in the heir, as it is in all atevi children. Note the child who pipes up "Look!" and points at Bren in Foreigner (again, I know). His hand is batted down because pointing is rude, not because he's not allowed to be curious. The children at the Malguri tour were fascinated by Bren, and one got into trouble for saying "Look, ma! The paidhi is shorter than I am, and I'm only 11!" Again, it was bad manners, not curiosity which got the child shushed. For lack of a better comparison, it's like the Japanese in the 1950s-1960s with American women's hair--be curious (fascinated even) by the colours and the curls and the waves, but don't be rude and ask to brush or touch it. (Mom's experiences in Japan while she was in high school.)

An atevi leader who won't pay attention to the numbers won't be aiji for long. There are three types of atevi aijiin: Agressor (stay at the top only long enough throw the unwilling followers off the cliff of technology, then jump yourself!), Support (encourage the unwilling followers to fling themselves off the cliff of their own accord, following you, since you've already jumped and called out how great it is), and Stability (If you help enough of the willing over the edge of the cliff, and jump with them, the unwilling will follow...if only to complain about it).

Tabini would be the agressor; Bren is a stability, even Cajeiri notes how he calms situations immediately; and Tati would be considered more of a support...at least in the most recent books. Mind, Tati won't jump himself, but he's certainly wanting to keep Tabini in charge.

Cajeiri will probably be more of a agressor-stability. Things must become cohesive by the time he becomes aiji, and they will have to deal with any number of things that have been ignored for the past, eh, fifteen years or so. Among those things are allowing time for the new technologies and the numbers of the new technologies to be absorbed into the aishi'dtat...which has not yet happened. The atevi citizenry is still reeling from crisis to crisis and technology to technology without a space for breath. If they don't get a chance for a break, there will be smaller upheavals, if only in the reactionary refusal to use any of the new technologies...even if "forced" to.

Atevi are wary of humans because humans have no clear hierarchy, no one who has final authority over anything...which is dangerous, according to atevi sensibilities and history. Bren is the closest thing they have to a human aiji, and he's still somewhat answerable to a committee. Despite the felicitous odd number of letters in the word "committee", atevi leaders seem to see them as infelicitous four-letter words.

Anyway, just another three-cents worth from yours truly. If it's not coherent, well, neither am I right now...will edit and apologize profusely if any gross errors are brought to my attention.
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Chia

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rosebladeaureliuskcir,Sep 18 2007
10:29 PM
What kept them from advancing is that EVERY numerical system in all the world must accommodate the changes, to encompass them, and to consider them in each philosophy as having value. Therefore, they perfected each stage the way humans didn't. We were willing to say "What, it needs to be x strong? Well, build it for x.7 and we'll be covered...just in case," when in came to machinery and levees, bridges, etc. Atevi wanted exact numbers, which caused several disasters, especially when experimenting with steam engines.


I'm afraid I'm going :ot! a little bit, but I was wondering how other interpreted this. I always interpreted it not just atevi figuring out all aspects so as not to have to overbuild, but also as integrating that knowledge into all areas of endeavor. Discover steam power? What are all the implications of understanding gas pressure, torque, and all the other aspects of science/math involved?

I don't know if I've done a good job of explaining as my mind just lost all examples.
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rosebladeaureliuskcir
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*sheepish grin* I didn't interpret that, just took it from what I've read and re-read so many times about atevi advancement & human impatience. In short, we guess and call it "good enough for government work". Atevi really don't find guesses felicitous, and would hesitate to assign a poor guess to their aiji. :P

However, I did understand that exploring the numbers of a thing included any and all facts about it. So, yes, I suppose your integration of all thing steam-engine example would be spot-on.

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rosebladeaureliuskcir
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Fools are without number.
- Desiderius Erasmus

I know, I know. I keep bumping this, but Moira's signature caught my eye. I recalled the atevi objection to the idea of infinity, and this could be a deadly statement, however true it may be. Thoughts?



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cicely58
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Not only are fools without number, but the numberless number of fools is, in my opinion, and based on my experience, increasing. And a distressing number (that word again! :) ) of them have driver's licenses.

(Perhaps I am being hasty. Perhaps, instead, the number of unlicensed drivers is increasing, and they are all taking to the streets at once.)

Anyway.

A good friend of mine married a mathematician, who for a while was studying sizes of infinities. If atevi are appalled at the thought of infinity, how would they take the idea that infinities are available in a variety of decorator sizes? And, for all I know (being, myself, definitely not a mathematician), colors?
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