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| A Thread For The Counters | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 24 2007, 02:46 AM (1,704 Views) | |
| Surtac | May 24 2007, 02:46 AM Post #1 |
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Antipodean Assassin
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The issue of numbers and counting is an intriguing one in the Foreigner series, overall. After dropping a thinkbomb about it in Aja Jin's thread on 'Atevi Cars' and running away, justice has been served by it bouncing back and going off in my own head. Hence this thread. We know that human mathematics primarily evolved using base 10, presumably from our ten fingers or toes. But this is not universal. Look up 'decimal notation' on Wikipedia and you'll find references to human civilisations or regional groupings that have used or continue to use number systems not based on 10. One example is the Mayan civilisation, which used base 20, counting all fingers and toes. (All the examples I found on Wikipedia use an even number as the base btw). Do we even know how many fingers are on an atevi hand? We know that they are symmetric bipeds as we are. They are not asymmetric (like the Moties in Niven and Pournelle's Mote books, or the Trinocs in Niven's Known Space). Is there a matching number of toes to fingers in the atevi? We don't know. There is a hint (in Explorer iirc) that the atevi number system may be hexadecimal (base 16). (There was a thread touching on this at the old site, which I'll drag back if I can find it.) What got me thinking in the cars thread was when someone pointed out the inherent instability of a three wheeled platform as a load carrying device on a three dimensional non-planar surface. (Well they didn't use those words but that was the meaning :) ). We know the atevi are good engineers. A good engineer is not going to build a non-triangular three-wheeled cargo platform that is super-sensitive to load distribution upon it. No, they'll make it as stable as possible. This means a supporting wheel at each corner, and additional wheels along the sides as necessary to support the cargo area and the payload. Necessarily it will be an even number of wheels. Atevi had railways before humans arrived. Rail implies an essentially rectangular platform to maximise cargo carrying areal capacity. My conclusion from all this: the felicity or infelicity of numbers is purely a societal or philosophical issue for the atevi. Engineering realities will be faced and dealt with as required. Notions of numerical felicity may be addressed after the fact. Lorg Geigi's elegant solution to the fish trap problem (from the point of view of the fish having a chance to not get harvested this time) was not going to change the fact that fish were going to get harvested. Preserving numerical felicity in this examples strikes almost as affectation (though that may be too cruel an assessment). Thoughts, nandiin? :invert |
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| rosebladeaureliuskcir | May 25 2007, 12:47 AM Post #2 |
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Machimi Writer in Hiding
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A thought...but there is the question of the felicitous division of slosh baffles in the solid-somethingorother rockets in Foreigner--and it was definitely a point of contention. And then there were the engineers that wanted to add another door to the Shai-Shan to preserve numerical felicity...but the design was considered to have excellent numbers because of its history and lack of accidents, so nothing was done that would change the numbers of the craft itself. Then there's the design of atevi apartments, which place the most valuable, or highest ranking, individual in the center and everyone else is then placed to protect/preserve this individual. That argues for a triangular arrangement within the living space of the homes, which would allow for other geometrical shapes for the public areas and staff areas. I think if atevi had more (or fewer) digits, She :cherryh: would have pointed that out with the same alacrity that she has in other books. Three-fingered hands come to mind, but for the life of me I can't think of the book. Alliance/Union at any rate (most likely the ones with the hani, et al). She :cherryh: is very good at mentioning differences between her species and humans, and between the species in general. To ignore such a detail would be atypical in the extreme. Also: how would Bren be able to use a smaller pistol if the grip were designed for someone with fewer or more digits on each hand? One presumes that Banichi would have a grip on his pistol that was more than a slightly curved rectangle--he is, after all, a professional and would therefore have professional-grade tools. The basis of the number system could be eleven or thirteen, which would make atevi math less comfortable for us five-tenners, but eleven is actually a pretty easy number to multiply. Or they could have the base five, which would allow for a great deal of movement and similarity within the mathematical expressions (the most basic ones for atevi, and some middle-high level ones for us). Given that atevei identify with numbers that are not evenly divisible (which still makes me wonder about the automatic infelicity in little things like eyes, nostrils, lips, arms, sexes (there's no mention of a neuter!), left-right, compass points, etc...but I digress), any prime base would be acceptable, so long as it's not two. Even base-one is possible, given the almost-instinctual structure of the society for each to look to one particular individual. Any way that it works out, so long as the base is not even and is not evenly divisible, it would be acceptable...which allows for five fingers to dictate a base numeral of five. Perhaps not hexadecimal (base 16), but a base FIFTEEN would be...better? Unless that fifteen were mitigated by one aiji/leader...which would allow for a base sixteen. So...base fifteen and base one in conjunction with each other? There is mention that atevi are bisymmetrical, as is common to oxygen-breathing species (as per Her :cherryh: theory) because it is the most efficient design. But here's the question: Would anything completely alien to humans be considered elegant. beautiful, or attractive? Jago and the others are described as "ebon gods" and "godlike"...which does not argue for extremely exotic differences. Instead, it argues for ancient pagan concepts of physical perfection--not the scary ones that have self-mutilation as major parts of "beauty" but the ones that created Apollo, Jove, etc. And, thanks to Bren's willingness to experiment with Jago, we know that humans and atevi are physically compatible, if not genetically so, and that again argues for more commonalities than differences when it comes to biology. More to the point, since the affair has continued so long, they're not just compatible but attractive to each other. If the issue of numerical felicity is purely social, then would there be such arguement over design, even working and proven designs? There's something there that seems to ping the deepest levels of atevi instinct--sort of like the one in humans that twitches to the cry of a child. I realize the two are not parallel in nature, but the point remains that numbers are instinctual to some degree. Consider the reaction to the paired station and ship doors, the glossed mentions of infelicity inherent in such a design; the circular pattern of twenty apartments at the space station that upsets atevi--the paired doors of the station and the round-table style apartments are not just annoying socially, they are an irritant, something that grates on nerves like nails on a chalkboard. But until we see atevi children that are still babies/toddlers, until we see atevi schools for ordinary (not aiji's) children, until we hear more about education vs. instinct--that's all we've really got to go on. The fish tank operated on baji-naji, with the underaged fish being swept aside until they are strong enough to swim in the current. Baji-naji, the fish may be caught...or it may not. That is not numerical, though there would be numerical limits to the number of fish the tank was able to support, so harvest would have to be continuous and careful enough to preserve a healthy species. As I recall, the number of hatches the fish could swim through was totaled at five: three tanks accessible to grown fish, one for a hatchery, and one for a nursery, opening to the main tank and allowing for movement between the thanks, not just through the central tank with the strong cross-current. Now, granted, I'm not an engineer, so I honestly can't comment on the feasibility of the construction, but it still follows the pattern of felicitous numbers. And it was designed to do so, specifically to follow felicity and keep baji-naji as an active part of kabiu on-station fishing. From what I gathered, the existance of baji-naji is what allowed the numbers to flex and change, not stagnate and become rigid. Assignments of the numbers may be philosophical in nature, but the fact that no atevi philosophy has been mentioned that does NOT involve numerical felicity in some way, shape, or form, argues that the attraction of numbers is much, much more than a social construct. Even the heretical group mentioned in Foreigner (Jago's contribution re: associating with everybody), was not without numbers--nor was the Taschi heresy with the Grandmother Stone. (We got bits of both from Bren's knowledge of atevi philosophy tendencies and from Manadgi watching Ian and the colonists.) They just weren't the popular philosphies, so we don't get much of their number theory. And Surtaci-ji, your restatment of the car problem is so much more technically elegant than mine. I bow to your technical superiority and give you :rose2: :rose2: :rose2: . Any rebuttals? |
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| rosebladeaureliuskcir | May 25 2007, 12:49 AM Post #3 |
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Machimi Writer in Hiding
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*pauses* I must be a masochist. Me and math are like magnetic north and magnetic north--there's no attraction...and yet here I am, playing numbers. *baffled* Why? How did this happen? One is unsure whether to blame Her :cherryh: or thank Her :cherryh: ! |
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| magicdomino | May 25 2007, 02:52 AM Post #4 |
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Living among the numerical infeliciousness of humans must be like living with a tribe of color-blind people. To the color-blind, their surroundings are a perfectly good blend of grays. To the color-sighted, the surroundings are a god-awful mishmash of chartreuse, puce and fuchsia. One tries to be polite and not wince, but oh, it is ugly. |
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| Eskaybe | May 25 2007, 03:38 AM Post #5 |
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Excellent topic for discussion. Would it be possible that the Atevi, being mathmatically gifted, use several different bases? It would help explain the children's language (base 3 or 5) and would allow children to ease into other bases as they begin to speak as an adult. Ms. Cherryh has had Bren explain how certain mathmatical calculations need to be made before determining the proper way address another. I would even propose that different bases would be used for different part of speech and/or function. When addressing a court official, use base 19, when speaking with friends in a bath, use base 7. When insulting those foreign, unfortunate humans, an even base may be used. My question is, are the more complex mathmatical equations easier to mentally perform in a different base? It may make sense that the Atevi could more easily calculate the answers by using a different base? Maybe Bren has reached linguist fluency by switching bases as well, instead of staying with base 10. Eskaybe |
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| rosebladeaureliuskcir | May 25 2007, 09:46 PM Post #6 |
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Machimi Writer in Hiding
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Eskaybe-ji, that may well explain why High Court Ragi is so difficult even for native speakers. There was mention of the differences in colloquial-vernacular Ragi and the language of the aiji's court. It could also explain why the written communication was difficult--a different base was used for a quick note to say "gone to the market, back by dinner" and "A Filing of Intent upon persons unknown..." and why Tano never quite used the correct "you" when leaving messages for Bren in the earlier books. The children's language is still numerical, but not the heavily connotative sort that Bren deals with on a daily basis. That would make the children's language more likely as a common language to those humans who live in close proximity and have not gone through or qualified for the paidhi program--such as the station humans. This theory fits nicely into the different levels of association as well. Definitely something to consider... |
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| moira | May 27 2007, 12:52 AM Post #7 |
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Senior Bujavid Security
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there are simple and elegant solutions for some of your engineering quandries, Surtac-ji. ex: a car with four tires would always carry a spare tire, thus resulting in the stability of five. and you *should* carry a spare, you know; to go without one is inviting misfortune, even if you are not a 'counter. ;) but as far as the other points you mentioned... I am never to be sure! although I do believe that *because* rendering the language natively involves calculations and behaving acceptably in society according to culture norms, etc, involves always numbers and calculations... this further strengthens whatever inherent mathematical ability the atevi have (and I do believe theirs is superior to generic human ability in this field). (and one has a poem one has been waiting to thrust upon you all; one always thinks of the atevi when reading it.) Numbers by Mary Cornish I like the generosity of numbers. The way, for example, they are willing to count anything or anyone: two pickles, one door to the room, eight dancers dressed as swans. I like the domesticity of addition-- add two cups of milk and stir-- the sense of plenty: six plums on the ground, three more falling from the tree. And multiplication's school of fish times fish, whose silver bodies breed beneath the shadow of a boat. Even subtraction is never loss, just addition somewhere else: five sparrows take away two, the two in someone else's garden now. There's an amplitude to long division, as it opens Chinese take-out box by paper box, inside every folded cookie a new fortune. And I never fail to be surprised by the gift of an odd remainder, footloose at the end: forty-seven divided by eleven equals four, with three remaining. Three boys beyond their mothers' call, two Italians off to the sea, one sock that isn't anywhere you look. from Poetry magazine Volume CLXXVI, Number 3, June 2000 |
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| moira | May 27 2007, 12:56 AM Post #8 |
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Senior Bujavid Security
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we may soon see the emergence of a creole based on the Ragi's children's language on the station, if the paidhiin see fit to let it develop over the next several generations. it was noted that the station humans who had to deal with the station atevi for everyday things had a certain set of stock phrases that had been okayed by the paidhi's office---sort of a pidgin, spoken by both sides, in that limited interface. one wants to know what this creole will sound like! basically, something like the children's language but with some human words and maybe sometimes some human grammar. (I say "human"---Mosphei' or whatever. She is never very specific. I guess they are too removed from Earth to think of their language as "Russian" or "English" or whatever it might be related to, since they've never even seen those places and never will.) |
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| rosebladeaureliuskcir | May 27 2007, 02:05 AM Post #9 |
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Machimi Writer in Hiding
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True, but one presumes the paidhiin have direct control over large sections of the station--if there's a way around authority, someone will find it. And besides, with such close proximity, it would be wiser to let this pidgin language develop and monitor it, rather than try to control it directly or refuse it. Bren seems to realize that some fraternization will occur, but is more interested in limiting damage than anything else. Either that or I'm too sleepy to remember correctly. Not sure if human grammar and Ragi, even the children's language, are compatible, but most likely the people will ask a one-word question question for clarification if the phrasing is odd or unclear. Most of the people who are working in combined atevi-human quarters seem to be sensible, flexible people who have few, if any, deeply entrenched ideas about the other. Question is, how will station kabiu differ from kabiu-terra? There are differences, but, if I recall correctly, Narani's little stone on a table under a baji-naji (more elegantly described by Herself :cherryh: ) is considered the most simple and elegant example of kabiu-terra on the station. What would be considered station-kabiu? What would the station-kabiu counterpart to that stone-table-bajinaji be? Would that kabiu be in conflict with kabiu-terra? Thoughts? |
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| Xheralt | May 27 2007, 07:26 PM Post #10 |
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No, just a math-o-chist.... :rofl: Be sure to stay away from people who study :w: sadistics! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: |
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| rosebladeaureliuskcir | May 28 2007, 03:56 AM Post #11 |
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Machimi Writer in Hiding
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Xh-ji...one whimpers in response. Shield and spear me such pun-ishment! :knife: |
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| camilla | May 30 2007, 01:44 PM Post #12 |
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Perhaps some of you 'counters can help me with a problem of ship time and relativity here: Reunion station is 20 light years away. The ship can journey one way to or from Alpha station in one year, ship time. This means that the ship, through whatever arcane magic that we are using to bypass Einstein, travels 20 times the speed of light. One year on ship = 20 years station or planet time. I originally got on to this trying to figure out how 300 people that Ramirez said had been left on station suddenly mushroomed into 4078. Yes, the real answer probably has to do with duplicity on the part of the PIlot's Guild, which cultivates and nurtures secrets like all ajiin. But, it could also be that in that one year of passage from Reunion to Alpha, 20 years passed at the station. This is one generation, assuming incentives for having kids and all that. 300, if all were adults and the incentives were so generous that all families had an average of 4 kids each (far from unheard of in human socieities), would work out to 150 (2 adults per family) times 4 (average kids per family) to 600 in the first generation, plus the 150 colonists who had not died, making the station population 750. And if there were 10 years at Alpha, followed by 20 years station time (ship time travels 20:1) we would have 30 years, another generation and a half, for these kids to grow up, have kids at whatever number. Suffice it to say that with kids included, 30 years could add another couple of thousand to the population. However, it seems pretty clear that 20 years have NOT passed back at Alpha. In the Hani books, Hilfy's dad, Kohan is in the prime of life when the book starts and yet, within only a couple of years of Hilfy's life, thanks to relativity, grows to old age and dies on her. This isn't happening at Alpha....Ogun is not completely white haired. Nobody comments on Toby looking so much older; Barb is only 35 or so. Only Bren's mother and members of the Aiji's staff have died, of completely understandable causes. So: In the Foreigner Universe, do they use a different means of propulsion very close to real time? Now, the Mospheirans know about relativity. Bren has a thought at the beginning of Invader that there might actually be people still alive on the ship who remember first contact. But later, nobody steps forward. So, what gives? It's a pity if the ship time is real time because a long enough period on the planet, not even 20 years, (say 10 years gone), might go a long way to explaining the loss of confidence in Tabini. It wasn't suddenly over a period of months at all....more like over a period of years. Comments? |
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| Saidaro | May 30 2007, 06:36 PM Post #13 |
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I'll give it a shot. First off, I have some problems with your first paragraph: OK OK Not so OK. To the stationary observer the ship may seem to travel that fast. But the ship doesn't actually pass through normal space, so it may not be travelling at that speed. This conclusion is not necessarily supported by your previous assumptions. Yes, it does seem like the physics of folded-space travel in Foreigner differs from the jump-based travel of the Alliance/Union/Compact universe. The latter seems to conform more to Einsteinian physics (except for the last part of Legacy involving t'ca communication capabilities). You would expect time to pass more slowly for ships travelling at a significant percentage of the speed of light than it does for a "stationary" observer. Travel via folded space doesn't seem to involve relativistic speeds, since the time on the ship spent travelling from Alpha to Reunion and back seems to be more or less the same as the time passed on the planet. As for the population on Reunion, it does seem to have a high rate of growth. I'd have to check to see exactly how long Reunion thought the ship was gone - I don't think it was 30 years. But I don't think we can really trust anything Ramirez said about the situation there. |
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| rosebladeaureliuskcir | May 30 2007, 10:30 PM Post #14 |
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Machimi Writer in Hiding
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Then again, with Tabini's troubles, that pot had been boiling since just before Phoenix arrived, so it's been 12-15 years or so before Bren, Ilisidi and Co. left that there have been indications that Tabini's position is not as strong with aijiin as it is with commoners. Also, removing Ilisidi allowed for a bloodier and more direct form of concentration. So long as she's on-planet, she cannot be discounted--ever. It's dangerous to do so. When she up and left, open season on the aiji-major...or at least attempted overthrow of the aiji-major. As for the population of Reunion--it's the Pilot's Guild leader handing out the numbers. Would you trust them??? The whole plante-station-ship-time bit...*shrugs* Completely outta my league. I lean toward "plot considerations" more than physical constraints and time differentials for that. Then again, I may well be completely wrong. There is another possibility bouncing around about that, but I'll have to nail it down before I have any hope of explaining it, but it does have to do with the concept of folded space and the peaks and valleys of "normal space". |
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| Chia | May 31 2007, 02:14 AM Post #15 |
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For the travel.... I'd have to go check, but did the ship travel directly from Reunion to the Atevi homeworld? or did they stop at the other planet where the guild wished to establish a station? That indirect route could have allowed for increased procreation, without aging the shipfolk. Just a random thought and not yet supported by citations. Second, on atevi numerical felicity. The numbers which make something environmentaly and aesthetically kabiu and natural are not the same numbers which makes something well engineered.I have not seen a disparity between the two (heaven forfend) sets. The felicity of the numbers is in the use of the numbers as well as the number itself. One would not use the numbers for a car seat in designing a saddle for a mechettia type thing. |
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8:47 AM Jul 11