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Algini And The Guild Deliverer Spoilers!; Algini and the guild Deliverer SPOILERS!
Topic Started: Feb 8 2007, 07:54 PM (2,468 Views)
Redstarred19

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One decidedly gets the impression that Algini either was the guildmaster

"There was some word. . . that the old Guildmaster had returned. . . but in what position or capacity, outsiders still did not know. Granted. . .there was also some hint he might step down soon," (pp. 36)


or that he served him and quit that position in the begining chapters of this novel

Algini: "It seems we are without official employment, nandi. Tano suggests we would still be welcome here. . . . We are yours. We now have no other man'chi, and we are very content with that situation." (pp. 85)

In either case Bren indicates that Algini's position in the guild is far higher than he previously assumed. One wonders though if it is possible Algini served the old Master and has become the new Guildmaster. It might explain why He returns alone, uncomfortable with and concerned for Bren, and unusually spruced up from a Guild vote for which he, Tano, and Banichi have all been absent. Of course it would mean Algini is lying to Bren-nandi even in this interview, but even the paidhi-aiji admits that such is a distinct possibility. . . and does not care.

The intriguing part is we'll likely never know for sure; no one is ever going to tell Nand' Bren such things. If such is possible though, one wonders how Banichi might feel giving orders to his Guildmaster :lol: (a side note; has Tano ever given Algini an explicit order?).

Other opinions? Evidence? One would be gratified for your thoughts.


:ot! What is wrong with the registration list?! For some reason I had to re-register to post a topic even though it remembered my e-mail address. It said it couldn't find my user-name. :Arrgh:
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Karzima

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I wondered about that, too, then decided that Algini was not the Guildmaster. It's back to the book, though, as I can't tell you why I decided that.
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rosebladeaureliuskcir
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I think it had to do with the fact that the old Guildmaster was presumed dead in...Destroyer & Pretender? Can't recall which, among other things. That and the fact that the old Guildmaster had been routed and was running from Murini's Guild long before Algini ever returned from space (which is why the Guild fell apart so quickly when Tabini was attacked), and it's hard to run away from something when you're not there to begin with. That he served the Guildmaster in a position of personal man'chi, and perhaps even as a direct voice for the Guildmaster when necessary, was a given.

I don't believe Algini is much older than Tano (it's not said his age, but the way he's written he seems to be of an age with Tano, who is neary Bren's age, which is darned young for a Master), and his personal history--that we were given some long time back in...Invader--told us that the Guild had presumed Algini dead for two years because he had had some personal crisis of man'chi and gone so completely silent within the Guild they'd, er, lost him. Tano was the one who had pointed out he wasn't really dead and needed to be "resurrected" from the list of dead members, and that he'd been voting regularly. One should not be able to lose a Guildmaster, no matter how quiet the Guild itself. So even if he HAD been Guildmaster at one time, the presumed-dead part would have ended his authority anyway...if an ateva would make that mistake with a superior...which I find highly unlikely.

There're probably other reasons, too. And if Algini told Bren he was without another job, the he would be telling the truth, since he acknowledged Bren as his direct lord with that "aiji-ma" in Pretender (can't recall page #). From Foreigner, the first fifty or so pages of the Bren narrative, an ateva would lie to any but his own aiji when it came to matters of man'chi; it was considered incredibly rude and even dangerouos to ask if one was NOT considered the aiji of that particular person.

I rather :salad: the idea he was attached loosely to the Guildmaster because of said crisis of man'chi, took the position because he knew Banichi from the Guild (or perhaps Banichi is a relative), and reported solely to the Guildmaster about this troublesome paidhi. Call me a romantic, but burned once that badly, I doubt any human or ateva as written would jump into another situation that would potentially hurt him just as deeply. Also, that situation seemed to be well-known within the Guild--the crisis and Algini's subsequent "death"--so having Algini as Guildmaster when he's been known to have such a situation...not sensible. Could he be Guildmaster now? I doubt it. That would definitely be slated as "other employment", see above. Is he senior Guild? Oh, yes. No doubt about it. But...probably not licensed, will probably never be, and probably will remain happy with his electronics, his position with Bren, and his unexpected partnership with Tano.

Roseblade A.
Popping out of hiding for a few minutes....
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Gent
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I had speculated that either Algini or one of the Assasins surrounding Bren in various households was the Guildmaster, but dismissed that for much the same reasons listed above.

While on the subject of Algini - am I alone in the salacious suspicion that Algini and Tano are partners in more ways than one? I felt that Banichi laid on extra emphasis when he informed Bren that Algini had become Tano's partner. Apart from Banichi's concern that Bren once had feelings for him (early :salad: reference), I detect no bias in the Atevi against same-sex relations.

While in conjecture mode, I half expect Bren-ji to be offered the Assasin Guildmaster position one day. They seem to (mostly) regard him highly, and the anonymity of the position would allow it...



edit: schpellinge
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barleysmama
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Bren as Guildmaster?!? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Imagine the house cleaning he would create.
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Redstarred19

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Yes, Algini disappeared from records for 2 years and was "found" when someone (the aiji I think) suggested him for Bren's security. One had momentarily forgotten that, thank you nadi. But the situation when he was given that bad assignment was referred to only vaguely and one has no memory of either Banichi or the paidhi being said to be involved in it. One also understood that what was bad about it was that it caused a crisis of man'chi in him: an emotional crisis, not that it in any way reflected badly on his abilities or reputation.

The fact that he tells Bren he has no other man'chi is not proof he has none other even though he says it to Bren; Bren states no more than two paragraphs later that Algini could very well be lying (one did refer to this earlier). And one does not see that the Guildmaster would have man'chi except possibly to the guild itself but that's like saying the aiji has man'chi to the ashidi'tat: an oxy-moron. (Indeed that fact might invalidate him for the poistion, assuming he does have man'chi to Bren and did not lie. . . if the Guildmaster is an aiji.) Algini states that he has "no official employment" and one would hardly get an official paycheck naming one the Guildmaster: that would surely blow cover.

Of course you may be right, nadiin, that he has never been nor is now Guildmaster; one does not dispute that. One is simply intrigued by the potential possibilities. One has personally gone round and round on that issue with oneself.

One does dispute Bren's availability for the position. One does not believe any non-guild could ever be considered, no matter how well respected. And despite the fact that he killed Murini (although one wonders whether he could collect the pay for that. There was a contract out on Murini was there not? Bren certainly suggested filing one. :lol: ) Bren will not even vote in the legislature as a lord, he would never run the guild. He considers it the atevi legal system.

Hmm, one has reviewed this post and hopes the readers have not just been hopelessly confused. Well, one has faith in others' abilities to sort out one's ramblings.

Thank you, nadiin, for your good comments.
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Redstarred19

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Oh, and Tano does the electronics; Algini blows things up.
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Gent
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One suspects that Algini's past may be a 9 novel series in itself. (Foreigner 10: Native :atwink )

There are hints and references throughout the series that seem to indicate his manchi was tested to near-destruction by some service, and other references that indicate that a death within his family either caused a crisis in manchi among the family members, or was used improperly by a person to advance themselves.

I don't say that Bren would accept such a position as Guildmaster - he is overly modest and very sensitive to what other's might think. I do think it is within the realm of possibility that it might be offered to him as one worthy of the position. Lord knows they are always joking of giving him a Guild license.

Slightly off-topic additional conjecture/wish: I personally would like to see Bren's letters to his brother and the letters to the Aiji published as one translated novel on both sides of the strait. Including annotations from crew and atevi who witnessed his actions. His popularity would recover on Mospheira, and his status among the atevi would solidify. Certainly Toby and Barb are capable of making the decision to publish and connecting the right parties on both sides.
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Neco the Nightwraith
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How do we know Tano is the same age (or thereabouts) to Bren? I never read that anywhere.

@ Gent: I too have that salacious suspicion that you do. >.>
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Gent
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One is much comforted by company!

In retrospect, if same-sex relationships were considered slightly "out of season" by the more hide-bound atevi, then Tano and Algini's comfort within Bren-ji's service might be more easily explained. A forward-thinking, practical Lord might be hard to find - especially one that offers so many interesting assignments.
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griffinmoon
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Gent nadi:
Your suposition was treated on in the Old Site threads somewhere. There are very few who entertain the homosexual notion for atevi. As fer as the pairing of Tano & Algini, my thought is/was that they are simply an assassins team that has worked long enough together to think as one. It's seen in the here-and-now of RL.
Now, mind you, I haven't read Pretender or Deliverer yet, so I don't know what's going on with Gini-ji but I don't think he was the Guildmaster that Murini had the (supposedly) successful assassination of. That he might be the next Guildmaster: maybe. We know nothing of what qualifications it takes to be one. That a Guildmaster could come from any sector (Technician like Banichi or Surveillence like Tano) would be reasonable. I can't imagine Assassins in general having more than one specialty. Lower level general competance, yes, but only one specialty.
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Sabina
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I think I may be partially responsible for that rumour. I once noted on the old page that a certain part of the German translation of Invader could easily be construed as Algini and Tano having a relationship (I don't know who was responsible for leaving out have a sentence containing Deanna (sp?) and splicing the next one onto it, so it came off that way, but then, the "Bren gets to take off his cast" scene was considerably shortened, too).

From reading the English versions, I never really got the impression that there was something between those two, but I'm a follower of the "Algini was Guildmaster" theory. Between Foreigner and Pretender a lot of time passed, he could have become Guildmaster inbetween.

Btw, I got the book :salad:

Cajeiri is a sweet little rascal, so bright and really understanding sometimes and not really thinking of everything at others. I can fairly well believe him capable of building a "wire", he was playing around with electronics on the ship, running about with Gene, building race-cars, hearing of the "wires" the Guild has (he was in close contact with Guild assassins who were rather informative and open if one read the things right). Who knows what he pick up on the voyage and what other movies he saw (or series, MacGuyver comes to mind :atwink).
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rosebladeaureliuskcir
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Quote:
 
One also understood that what was bad about it was that it caused a crisis of man'chi in him: an emotional crisis, not that it in any way reflected badly on his abilities or reputation.


Redstar-nadi: Not on his abilities or reputation, but possibly on his stability; an ateva in a crisis of man'chi, especially one that causes such a dramatic disappearance, could hardly be considered for something sensitive. So until he got sorted out again, he would have been put somewhere that did not exacerbate his present difficulties. Or he managed to get through it in a way that hurt him so deeply his only response was to go completely quiet until he felt he was able to continue in his chosen profession--one does recall Bren's observations in Invader that Algini excelled and took care of details because he demanded it of himself. And I know that it doesn't say when the "disappearance" was, or that he is somehow related to or closely acquainted with Banichi, but I've formed that impression between the lines, the feeling that there's some sort of association there that no one will admit publicly, at least not within Bren's hearing.



Quote:
 
    The fact that he tells Bren he has no other man'chi is not proof he has none other even though he says it to Bren; Bren states no more than two paragraphs later that Algini could very well be lying (one did refer to this earlier).


True. I guess I'm giving Algini more credit than Bren is, but I can't shake the aiji-ma that Algini directed at Bren or the implications of that address. There's a lot more there than we have been told by Herself :cherryh:, and I'm not set in stone about it. Wait and see... And how much more "official" can one get, besides "the guy in charge"?? I can't imagine the Guildmaster as a man-about-town. I'd think he'd be wrapped up in various aspects of training, Filings, inner disputes, balances, assignments, etc. to be deeply involved with a cover. Life at the Guildhall, living at the Guildhall, on-call for the aiji (Tabini, of course), etc.


Bren as Guildmaster...I can see it now...
"Can you not settle this millenia old bloodfeud with a nice cup of tea and a discussion of verbs, nadiin? One is quite certain that successful negotiation is comletely dependant upon the verbs...such as the infintive form: to Bren..."
The feud is instantly forgotten in efforts to get away from this human madman...
"Neatly done, Bren-ji," Banichi rumbles from the doorway.
"Finesse, 'Nichi-ji. Finesse." Bren smiles happily and drinks the tea with his most trusted and dear staff.


Nadi, one is hardly confused by one's post. Definitely interested, but hardly confused.



Sabina-nadi: Can't say I have pictured that sort of association between Algini and Tano--nor have I wanted to. I took Banichi's reaction to Bren's man'chi claim as more than a bit offended, perhaps even by the idea. Then again, considering his daughter was interested in Bren, well, that was rather awkward... I took the "partners" statement as Algini, a loner through circumstance, and Tano, a junior and fresh-faced, who were put together by assignment for political and Guild reasons have now finally clicked into a true Guild partnership, like the ones shared by other Guild pairs that we've seen throughout the books. I didn't catch anything sexual in it, especially when given Tano's comment about some of the ladies who had proposed to Bren in the first trilogy.

Roseblade A.
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rosebladeaureliuskcir
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Sabina, pehaps Algini wasn't Guildmaster, but was his protoge? That would make a kind of sense...things did begin moving again when Algini was on the ground, and he did seem to know a great deal more than even Banichi about the workings of the Guild re: politics (if I remember correctly). Algini might not be the Guildmaster now, but could have resigned his position as protoge to the Guildmaster, or stepped in as the Guildmaster's unofficial hand...sort of like approaching, oh, Damiri's cousin in order to approach Damiri to get Damiri to approach Tabini, and not needing to actually get Tabini's go-ahead on the matter at hand.

Well, it makes sense if you read it three times...I can't get the phrasing of it just yet.

Now, having someone close to Bren, or well-known to Bren become Guildmaster/was Guildmaster, that I can see. But they'd have to have stayed on the ground. Bren didn't bring but his original four Guild with him, so it couldn't be anyone still on-station. Someone from his old apartments, maybe...but again, the duties of a THE master vs. the undercover role...they don't mesh.

Roseblade A.
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morgaine0000

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I think it is likely that Algini reported to and had man'chi only to the Guildmaster. Most of the Guild Members in the Bujavid would have man'chi to whomever they were protecting and possibly could not be relied upon by the Guildmaster. Does anyone doubt that Cenedi, for example, would act against the Guildmaster's wishes if it were in Ilisidi's best interest and by her order? In Algini's case, it seems likely that man'chi was broken during the traumatic incident and he had no man'chi left except to the Guild, and was therefore considered reliable by the Guild leadership. Being stuck on the station, I don't think he really had access to be in a high leadership position in the Guild. Although, I wonder if he could have been the Guild contact on the station? Between, the shuttle crews/Ilisidi's Security/Geigi's Security/etc. it seems like the Guild would have wanted to know what was going on up there.

Another thought I had, was that I wonder how devoted Murini's Guild people were at the end. I know that man'chi can end when someone dies, but revenge seems to be an option too. But they basically surrendered, as if they knew Murini was in the wrong. Maybe because trying to kidnap minors isn't kabiu?
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